I couldn't agree more, GG.
(Tangent of another thread)
No not all are convictions nor am I going to post the details about everything listed there. But it shows a trend and good number of them are convictions.
Your own article states people with power buy their way in with government.
The entire point of government unions is to act in conjunction with the government and to seek power whenever possible. Manipulating the system and work for their own agenda witch ultimately means get more money from the government to it's union in one form or another.
Where do you think the government gets it's money from? The taxpayers are the ones who support our local economy for with out them there would be no one to support the government nor would there be a need for the services the government provides.
My intention is not to put ALL union workers in the electric chair but to point out that the union leaders are taking from not only the tax payers but their own members. That the union members are being taken advantage of by their own leaders with only a small payoff to the actual workers. That the workers/members pay taxes to the government. The government then pays the members who then pay the union leaders who in many cases use that money to line their own pockets instead of helping them as individuals. And that they seem to care less like the public has done in the past by electing poor leaders with their own self serving agenda.
The union leaders by ensuring the government and the taxpayers are held back from making decisions that would ultimately help the region as a whole are lining their own pockets while letting everyone else suffer.
The government workers want to see this region improve just as much as anyone else but their leaders are just as much at fault as the political leaders for holding the region back economically.
Everyone admits business’s leave the area because of the government and mainly taxes. The people who can afford to leave the area to seek jobs.
A job is a job. Low paying entry level jobs are exactly what we need in the area. This is what the unions do not understand. By forcing higher pay compared to other areas. Business would rather go else where and the reason why some company’s have left the area.
When business leave people become unemployed and receive money from the government. Now the government is forced to pay these people like it or not, it's not going to change. The people will not allow social services to change because a good percentage of the voters have used or will use one of those services at some point in their lives.
These programs suck our local economy dry.
Now by encouraging business locally based or not. Someone will have to provide the services and products these business offer thus creating jobs.
Creating jobs means less people requiring social services, less money required to be taxed and more people to pay the tax. Thus resulting in more money to pay the government jobs. Now if we use this method. The lower taxes and having more people with the skills required for better jobs. Moe company’s would move into the area and we would have a start and a potential twist to this downward spiral we are all caught up in.
The unions used to focus on a national level and they were quite effective in that. When they switched to the local instead of the national this is where they failed and became corrupted, especially in NY and even more so in NYC, resulting in the politicians at the state level creating the burden on us here.
With now having a global economy the unions should switch to a global level instead of a local one.
This is where the unions work best and have helped society and the “workers” the most. The unions were created to help the working class by creating standards and laws that apply to everyone in an industry, the working people as a whole. Their biggest accomplishments, they constantly reference themselves. Helped everyone against big business monopolies and the high paying leaders.
The problem is people lack to see is the unions have became the big business monopolies and the high paying leaders, originally created to fight against.
See I’m not against the concept of unions rather I’m against what they have become.
The county has to focus on what it can do at a county level instead of passing the blame onto the state and find ways to fund the mandates on a LOCAL level, like most every other county in the state. The county keeps spending money on telling the people the state makes us do this and that. When the money could be spent on finding ways to suck it up and deal.
That’s what the state legislators are for.
Last edited by GG716; April 11th, 2008 at 10:15 AM.
Originally Posted by GG716
With now having a global economy the unions should switch to a global level instead of a local one.
This is where the unions work best and have helped society and the “workers” the most. The unions were created to help the working class by creating standards and laws that apply to everyone in an industry, the working people as a whole. Their biggest accomplishments, they constantly reference themselves. Helped everyone against big business monopolies and the high paying leaders.*************
Best thing you've written , not casting stones , not condemning , I like the Global facet here...........can we force or organize other country's organizations though........? We can't even organize ourselfs here in WNY ? We all want whats best for our area , esp. if we intend to stay , as I believe most do................It's such a complex issue , trying to get other country's standard of living to where they would pay their workers what we pay ours (private & public) , it would even out the playing field , it would give our economy a boost , & that's why the other countries won't do it , they want to see our power erode , the rich will just keep getting richer regardless of what part of the world they're in , the poor just poorer............nice dream though.............have to try & start somewhere , might as well draw the line in the sand here or at least try too...........
For the ORIGIONAL reason the "UNION" was created here it can be created in most other parts of the world as well. The unions original agenda has been accomplished in the USA and now it's time to move on to other places.Originally Posted by winfield31
Everyone is corrupted by power including the union itself.
Just look at how the unions CURRENTLY operate, it's not about the people as a whole and creating a level playing field for everyone it's about their own self serving agenda.
The ORIGIONAL "union" has done some great things but thoes days are long gone. If the union went back to its roots wouldn’t they focus on leveling the playing field for everyone? Back in the ORIGIONAL union days the USA was their mission now it's down to volunteers installing swing sets. While the business have focused on their own agenda by simply moving away from the unions.
Everything has gone backwards and the union has itself has become the exact thing they originally were designed to fight against. The unions themselves have failed. Their leaders are the CEO's everyone hated, the unions are the big business the people united against.
It's sad that no one seems to understand this concept or cares what is best for the workers. ALL THE WORKERS not just the union due paying workers.
Jobs have and will continue to leave this country as the cost of labor is simply not worth it anymore. Shouldn’t the unions fight the other countries to bring their pay rates up rather than complain about imported goods because it's a lost cause. Jobs will not come back unless they have a reason to. Such as a level playing field. The government will not impose taxes on every single imported good and pay the working class in this country. It's not going to happen even though somehow the unions think they can control who buys what. Every single union member and leader uses goods bought or made in other countries some with cheep labor. There is no way around it plain and simple.
So focusing on bringing other countries to the standards we have here in the USA will ultimately be in the best interest for EVERYONE. Unions at a local level are useless in the long run and only benefit it’s members for a little while though it’s leaders forever.
Again I am NOT against the concept of workers uniting for a common goal "UNION" in fact it is a GREAT concept. I am against what the term "UNION" has become and unions focusing on the small picture and their leaders self serving agenda.
I ask ONE person to PROVE the unions salaries (the union itself not the members) are in line with it's members. Remember the UNION was created to LEVEL the playing field. How much do union secretaries make compared to a union members secretary?
Last edited by GG716; April 11th, 2008 at 08:36 PM.
I absolutely agree with you GG. Great post and couldn't have said it better myself.
Back in the 80's a group of part time musicians who played wedding music and ethnic "Polish" music formed the Independent Musicians Union because Local 92 Musicians Union was very discriminatory to part time and "ethinic" musicians. Anyway, these musicians hired a labor lawyer and came up with a constitution etc. All the musicians wanted was a contract that would hold up in court and have a brother/sisterhood of musicians that could lead to jobs. Nothing fancy. The only officers that were paid were the secretary and the treasurer for obvious reasons. The pres, vice pres and board of directors were not paid. The dues were just high enough about $100 a year to pay rent for the office and pay the sec. and tres. and other operating expenses. The contracts that the IMU used held up in court because one band had to take someone to court and they won the court case. Other situations were upheld also. It was quite successful while it lasted. I'm not sure when it closed down because I had left before it ended. By the way I sat on the board of directors for a few years.
This was an example of what you talked about. Having solidarity as far as the nasty ploys some employers do but reasonable enough to not choke it's members and come off as "greedy".
My music is the expression of my soul. If my song is censored, I'll sing it loud somewhere else.
Why do you bring this up?I ask ONE person to PROVE the unions salaries (the union itself not the members) are in line with it's members. Remember the UNION was created to LEVEL the playing field. How much do union secretaries make compared to a union members secretary?
Don't they represent even the people who work at the Union?
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Backsliding.
The reason any one starts a business is to generate profit. To enrich themselves through hard work. Nothing wrong with that. God Bless them. Go back to prehistoric times. A hunter was good, maybe better than the rest. He killed more and traded the meat to the guy who made better spears. So now the guy who makes better spears becomes the focus of the good hunters. He needs to make them faster so he gets others to help and shares the meat....
Fast forward to England in the 1600's. This is the beginning of our modern work ethic based on the Protestant Puritan work ethic. It also is the beginning of "Professional Guilds". Trades men banded together for mutual benefit and strength. Read up on it. This is the basis of our capitalistic, free Enterprise System. The English Civil War, The American Revolution and the American Civil War are all a result of The school of thought that originated then. It is based on two things, Religion and Control of government.
You can dispute it if you want but the facts are there. I recommend a book called "The Cousins Wars" by Kevin Phillips.
So let's get to today's situation with labor and management in this country.
After the Civil war, when industry really started to take off the rich entrepreneurs in this country needed labor to expand their industries. They found a ready and willing pool in the poorer parts of Eastern and Southern Europe. As well as the Catholic Irish who were already here, but impoverished. (to a lesser extent the Germans, but they seemed to adapt better to the puritan protestant ideals and were more "excepted").
It is no secret that the powers that be , if not with the governments blessing, at least with a blind eye, exploited these immigrant workers. They became immensely wealthy while paying next to nothing to the employees. In human working conditions, long hours, everyone knows the history.
The freed Blacks from the South fared even worse, if that was possible.
Unions were formed in the pattern of worker guilds of England. They struck for better, safer working conditions, shorter hours, and to a lesser extent, better pay. The elite classes fought them at every turn, not wanting to share the wealth that these men worked so hard to put in their pockets. The union men were attacked, beaten, brutalized and often killed.
This went on for years, you could say the high water mark of brutality was realized in the Hay Market of Chicago in the Mid 1880's but it was much more prolonged. It took four things to turn it around.
The first was the perseverance of the workers themselves. The second was the increasing numbers of immigrants who started to take part in the political process in their communities. The third was the social conciseness raised by writers like Upton Sinclair. The fourth and final was the leadership of progressive politicians such as Theodore Roosevelt.
Things slowly got better.
Then the great depression hit. Manufacturing slowed, profits dropped and the rich and powerful saw their fortunes start to diminish. (the real powerful had so much that even the depression couldn't dampen their live style, but they got a taste of what could happen). Unions again stepped to the for front to protect the rights of the working poor and once again were met with resistance.
The next thing you know, WWII and a boom in manufacturing. The result in the years was untold prosperity. The United States became the greatest industrial nation that ever
existed. The wealth that flowed was unprecedented and the workers shared in it. The unions got the best medical coverage, higher wages, a chicken in every pot and two cars in every garage.
Your Grandparents didn't have that, never dreamed of it.
The rich got richer and the working class became the middle class. But it was still not the intention of the industrialists to share the wealth. They reluctantly did because they were making so much money it wouldn't be cost effective to deal with labor unrest. But they never could get used to sharing the wealth with those that produced it for them.
What happened between then and now?
It was found that this unprecedented heavy industry was taking it's toll on the environment. regulations were passed forcing manufacturers to spend money to clean the mess they made and invest in costly equipment and manufacturing techniques to stop the pollution.
Plants became outdated as new technology that was less labor reliant was introduced. As medical innovations were developed care rates increased. And the biggest factor, Other countries around the world began to industrialize using newer technology. They often did this with aid from us and, unlike our country, government substation. This allowed them a competitive advantage.
So our rich and powerful saw their potential profits begin to dwindle. They need to do something and do it fast. The main area to address was the workforce.
So Fresh from Hollywood rides Ronald Regan on his white horse. Self interest becomes the new ideal. The propaganda machine fires up and labor is attacked as destroying this country. He goes after the Air Traffic Controllers and the attacks on labor begin. The greed of the industrialist is replaced in the public mind by the greed of the working man.
Public sentiment is turned against the worker, particularly the greedy, corrupt, union member. The manufacturing base in this country is destroyed by disastrous trade agreements as facilities are abandoned and the owners move them to third world countries with little or no environmental laws or safety regulations. A cheap labor force is found in third world countries and exploited just as it was here over a hundred years ago.
Profits soar and the richest one percent get richer.
Meanwhile the average American worker's income is dropping. Record oil prices and an increase in food prices is eating away at his shrinking income. He can't afford medical insurance for his family. His dollar is weakening and he's losing his home.
But the rich get richer.
Now the powers that be see an opportunity. The only workers left making anything are a few manufacturing industries, public employees and service sector. So target those unions and destroy them while we have the what used to be middle class on their knees. The best way to achieve that goal is to destroy the only thing that gives them any semblance of strength, unity.
You people can't see the forest for the trees.
You need Unions more than ever. With out them the working people of this country will lose the only voice they have. The only political (albeit reduced) presence they have.
And that in brief is the history of where we are and were we are headed.
You may say it's propaganda, but what I say here is mostly historical fact.
Are Unions perfect. Of course not. But for the most part they are pure in their intent and the greed you say drives them is less intense than those who want them to disappear. Their is more corruption in the business community as well as government than there ever was in Organized Labor.
You can't dispute that.
With out unions and the truths and values they are based on we would become nothing but a third world country with a elite class of rich and everyone else there to serve them.
"If you want to know what God thinks of money just look at the people he gave it to."
By the way, what happened to biker? I miss the old coot.
Thanks for the the history lesson on unions citymouse. I too read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair and it gave me an insight to what my great grandfather may have gone through when he came to America around 1900. He originally went to Chicago to work at the stockyards, he was a meat cutter, but the after a couple of years came to Buffalo and started his own butcher shop. I believe, as you, that we need unions more now than ever. The private sector needs to consider the benefits of unionizing. I just think that some of our union officers lose focus at times and forget that they are answerable to the members.
My music is the expression of my soul. If my song is censored, I'll sing it loud somewhere else.
Now that's what I call one hell of a demagogue manifesto, citylouse!!!
What's telling is todays middle class is larger that it's ever been and the vast majority of the individuals that comprise it have never been union members.
Your misspelled populist rants are a laughable as they are dishonest.
Shill.
Data is not the plural of Anecdote.
I have to respectfully disagree. Having worked in and out of unions and in and out of government, unions are the bane of business. Businesses that are stuck with unions are stuck with slack, slip shod, workers that , for the most part, are banging the cash cow.Originally Posted by 4music
I think productivity and quality of product would increase if it weren't for unions.
I can see where unions came in handy, but that was 100 years ago. With media coverage as it is, there would be little disadvantage to the factory worker.
First Amendment rights are like muscles, if you don't exercise them they will atrophy.
Bane of Business? Of course they would be to the owners. If they are forced by contract to pay a living wage , rather than substandard wages, it is going to cut the profit.Originally Posted by mesue
Would you agree that productivity would increase with Slavery as well?
Media is owned by the same people who own the companies. Don't count on a fair shake there. when was the last time an individual worker was treated unfairly, went to the media and had his case presented to the public? I can't recall one example. But I am sure it isn't because it dosen't happen. Even when some one dies on the job because of possible negligence, it dies in the media. What was the outcome of that young man dying at the Webb Building a year and a half ago? You probably don't know because it was buried in the press.
Handy is hardly how I could describe unions one hundred years ago.
I agree that in a lot of cases unions protect less than stellar workers. They have to be equal in how they represent all members or they leave themselves open for lawsuits. That is definitely a draw back to them. Greed on the part of corrupt leadership is another. But the benefits of organized labor far far out weigh the excesses.
"If you want to know what God thinks of money just look at the people he gave it to."
By the way, what happened to biker? I miss the old coot.
I do understand what you mean. I'm talking about unions in the idealist sense for what they were originally created for and NOT what some of them have become. I, too, resent having a slacker worker protected while I bust my a** working. I could go into much more about this but I don't want to get into specifics here.Originally Posted by mesue
My music is the expression of my soul. If my song is censored, I'll sing it loud somewhere else.
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon
Look who came out of the woodwork!
Come on Crummie! Recalling history is hardly a "populist rant". And if I misspelled a word or to I apologize for bruising your intellectual sensibilities. As you well know, I am but a humble public servant.
While it is true that most members of a quickly shrinking middle class have never been union members you can't deny that the benefits they enjoy (which are also shrinking), things like health coverage , paid vacations, medical leave, paid holidays and even the cushion of unemployment insurance, are there because of the efforts of organized labor in the last hundred years.
Or are you going to dispute that as well?
There is nothing dishonest in anything I said. I should have known that as soon as the question of labor and unions, and the necessity of them in today's world, was raised you would be lurking in the shadows to bash what ever I had to say.
Ever since I came on this board your comments have shown you to be nothing but a tool for the very elements that want to bring the working man farther to his knees.
"If you want to know what God thinks of money just look at the people he gave it to."
By the way, what happened to biker? I miss the old coot.
So how do you explain the millions of workers that do not belong to a union and still manage to make $50-100k/year and more? There are some huge companies out there paying big bucks. Their workforce is non-union. They have great benefits and pensions and 401k plans.
I can even think of quite a few right here in good ole WNY.
I think the pendulum has swung to the side of excess on the part of the unions driving corporations out of business.Originally Posted by citymouse
First Amendment rights are like muscles, if you don't exercise them they will atrophy.
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