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Thread: Eliminating school districts

  1. #16
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    Linda, in a libertarian society, there are no government schools, so please stop playing the libertarian card.

    The main difference between Linda and I, aside from her need to insult people when she posts, is that she and I live in different states.

    In the state I live in, the economy is depressed, young people are moving and we have the highest taxes in the country. The population is aging, not a good sign for the future.

    In Linda's state, there are no such problems.

    Thus, I seek bold changes in the ways we do business; Linda opposes them.

  2. #17
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    Yes, I do favor sub-municipal government. For example, North Buffalo should be largely autonomous. Let's get the munipalities in charge of education, then we can further decentralize if the voters so choose.

    I believe, for example, that Amherst's board should be elected by districts. It's a large town and it's becoming very expensive to run for office there.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda_D
    If you don't understand the limitations on BOEs then you can't come up with reasonable solutions. School boards are not free to do whatever they want. They have to teach certain subjects at certain grade levels, they have to maintain certain staffing levels, they have to provide busing for private school students with free transportation up to 15 miles from the school, they have to provide special education services to physically and mentally handicapped students, they have to pay the raises that they agreed to in their contracts with employees, etc.
    Funny how you mention the biggest expense last. Why? The BoE votes on the contracts, so who's to blame if they run up a silly payroll? Of course, if there's a NYSUT member on the BoE, we all know they vote with their conscience, since they represent the taxpyers. Have I got that right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Linda_D
    I'm a supporter of democracy, and your plan smells of autocracy and oligarchy in the name of lowering taxes.
    Yeah, well, I'm not a big fan of BoE members handpicking relatives and friends for teaching positions, but what are ya gonna do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Linda_D
    This was aimed at several of the responders whose suggestions are clearly illegal and/or unconstitutional. Some were just plain ignorant.
    Besides you and Jim, this 'several' constitutes four. Throwing an accusitory smokescreen hardly lends credibility to your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Linda_D
    I suppose it must be something in the water up there that makes you (ie, people from Hamburg north) not understand that people can work together towards consensus. Maybe you all have too much money or time on your hands.
    Seeing that, in the very same post, you talk about how the BoE's hands are tied by state mandates (nice of you to drop the unfunded thing) then you drum up doublethink like this? Which is it? Are the BoE mere puppets for the State or are they able to "work together towards consensus"? I'm probably too ignorant to grasp such fundamental doublethink, so why don't you show us the light?

    Your silence on the other points is deafening.
    "At a minimum, a head of state should have a head."- Vladimir Putin

  4. #19
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    That's plain bull manure. BOEs are directly responsible to the district voters. If the residents don't get off their butts and vote, that's they're problem. Your proposal, to take away peoples' right to specifically elect the people who run their local schools because not enough of them vote, smacks of autocracy. You don't lose your vote just because you don't exercise it the way some people think you ought to. Your supposed "libertarianism" is really only about "libertariansim" as JO sees it.

    So what school district do you work for?
    "One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."--Carl Sagan

  5. #20
    Member Batman's Avatar
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    Your silence on the other points is deafening.

    Of course. Linda is obviously on the payroll. If not, then she reads and believes too much PC bull.
    "One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."--Carl Sagan

  6. #21
    Member Batman's Avatar
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    If you don't understand the limitations on BOEs then you can't come up with reasonable solutions. School boards are not free to do whatever they want. They have to teach certain subjects at certain grade levels, they have to maintain certain staffing levels, they have to provide busing for private school students with free transportation up to 15 miles from the school, they have to provide special education services to physically and mentally handicapped students, they have to pay the raises that they agreed to in their contracts with employees, etc.

    Correct. The teachers unions lobbied for all those laws to be passed.
    "One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."--Carl Sagan

  7. #22
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    Tremendous increases in school spending over the last 30 years....

    What have the results been and who has benefitted?

    Answer that question...
    "One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."--Carl Sagan

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda_D
    Isn't it a bit hypocritical for an ECC student/graduate to advocate for the elimination of public education? Why did you choose a public college over a private one? It wouldn't be because of the five figure cost differential just in tuition, could it?

    That leads to another question: what about children whose parents can't afford private education?

    Moreover, not only do you assume that there aren't unions in private education, you also assume that teachers work for less in private schools. You might want to revise your assumptions.
    1. I chose ECC for a variety of reasons. First, they offered the program I wanted. Second, the location was convenient both to work and home. Third, I have already contributed to the support of ECC through taxes for many years.

    2. If a voucher program is implemented all parents would be able to allocate a fixed amount of money to educate their children. Private schools would easily be within the means of any income level.

    3. My assumptions about unions and schools isn't just a salary issue. It is quite evident that public schools have their hands tied by union rules and are not able to always make the best choices to further the cause of education. Also, private schools are currently the beneficiary of government programs which inflate the cost of education. Government student loans have put a definite upward pressure on the cost of education, public or private. Schools do not operate as efficiently as possible to attract students with the government ready to step in and finance education.
    The path is clear
    Though no eyes can see
    The course laid down long before.
    And so with gods and men
    The sheep remain inside their pen,
    Though many times they've seen the way to leave.

  9. #24
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    "Why shouldn't School Boards exist? You haven't made a single argument that shows not having them is better than having them."

    This is a very revealing remark. (Leaving aside that I did make such arguments.)

    Free Buffalo's attitude towards government agencies and policies is sharply different from that of the political class and supporters of the status quo.

    They think of government agencies and such as like the Grand Canyon--it's always been there and always will be.

    Our approach? In a declining state and declining economy, every government agency and program must justify itself. The burden is on them to prove to us why they exist; why they need so much money to exist.

    We have taken that appraoch with all our studies and will continue to do so with all our future studies. Why should authorities exist? They shouldn't.

    Why should IDAs exist? They shouldn't. Why should corporate welfare exist? It shouldn't.

    Why should separate governments exist to run schools? They shouldn't. They're too expensive and dominated by special interest groups. Abolish them and let's not lose any sleep over it.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJB
    Jim, the main problem with the school districts are that they are governed more by the teachers union than by the school boards. I believe that having individual districts is fine as long as they are union free schools. I also believe that the schools are becoming more and more ,pork and patronage jobs for politicians family members. If you were to check, most of the school board members and general staff are committee members of a political party. When politics enter the schools, education ceases to exist!

    The Niagara Wheatfield is a Taliban Run district.The teachers Union is the Enemy and needs to be fought at every turn.We have a superintendent who cant do math.Paid three times the asking price for a piece of property to build on. Every year these bastards raise school taxes and tell you its for the kids.It aint for the kids its for the Teachers Union.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman
    That's plain bull manure. BOEs are directly responsible to the district voters. If the residents don't get off their butts and vote, that's they're problem. Your proposal, to take away peoples' right to specifically elect the people who run their local schools because not enough of them vote, smacks of autocracy. You don't lose your vote just because you don't exercise it the way some people think you ought to. Your supposed "libertarianism" is really only about "libertariansim" as JO sees it.

    So what school district do you work for?
    Sorry, but I have never worked for any school board. Not everybody who believes in public education works for the public schools.
    Your right to buy a military weapon without hindrance, delay or training cannot trump Daniel Barden’s right to see his eighth birthday. -- Jim Himes

  12. #27
    Member Linda_D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelawareDistrict
    1. I chose ECC for a variety of reasons. First, they offered the program I wanted. Second, the location was convenient both to work and home. Third, I have already contributed to the support of ECC through taxes for many years.

    2. If a voucher program is implemented all parents would be able to allocate a fixed amount of money to educate their children. Private schools would easily be within the means of any income level.

    3. My assumptions about unions and schools isn't just a salary issue. It is quite evident that public schools have their hands tied by union rules and are not able to always make the best choices to further the cause of education. Also, private schools are currently the beneficiary of government programs which inflate the cost of education. Government student loans have put a definite upward pressure on the cost of education, public or private. Schools do not operate as efficiently as possible to attract students with the government ready to step in and finance education.
    And what about the children of parents who can't find a school to educate their children for "a fixed amount of money"?

    What about special needs children?
    Your right to buy a military weapon without hindrance, delay or training cannot trump Daniel Barden’s right to see his eighth birthday. -- Jim Himes

  13. #28
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    Linda, I don't think people are against public education at all. I think what we all want is a responsible school system that addresses the needs at the lowest cost possible. That's not what we are getting here. Teachers have a hard job, we all know that. Hell, I wouldn't want to do it. But they get far more than their fair share of perks to do it. Then on top of all of it, our taxes keep going up for needless programs that don't do much for anybody or just a few individuals at best. For instance, any school system pays over a hundred K for an athletic director. Why? So a few kids at best can play sports that don't provide a career in the end? I say no way!! Concentrate on the four major subjects, put the cash there! English, Math, Science, and History. That's all that is needed. Until our kids master that, to hell with school plays, needless field trips, art and music classes. A public education should be just to get your kids educated enough to get into a higher education facility( college) or be able to function at the lower paying jobs with just a H.S. diploma. All the extras should be taught in private schools or college.

  14. #29
    Member colossus27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda_D
    And what about the children of parents who can't find a school to educate their children for "a fixed amount of money"?
    How is this different from people that leave here because they can't afford school taxes?
    "At a minimum, a head of state should have a head."- Vladimir Putin

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda_D
    And what about the children of parents who can't find a school to educate their children for "a fixed amount of money"?

    What about special needs children?
    Why wouldn't parents be able to find a school? Competition would spur the growth of schools. There are schools in some parts of our country now educating students at a cost of about $3000 per year per student and doing a better job than the NYS public schools which receive over $14,000 per year per student. Nichols School manages to educate students at roughly the same cost with an average of 14 students per classroom; Comprehensive tuitions for 2006-2007:
    Grade 5: $14,800
    Grades 6-8: $14,950
    Grade 9: $15,850
    Grades 10-12: $16,000

    When you compare Nichols costs and results to Public Schools, the results of Public Schools are unacceptable.

    As far as special needs children go, I have heard many complaints about the way the public schools handle them. Many schools lump developmentally disabled students in classes with students with disciplinary problems.

    The simple fact is the teachers unions, through lobbying efforts, have managed to keep any real reform from happening in NYS. Charter Schools are a good beginning, however NYS has recently capped the number of Charters in the State. Eliminating and limiting competition is a loss for everyone. Choice leads to a better product/service.

    I don't understand how anyone can defend the current system. The system doesn't work and the costs keep spiraling out of control. The only possible explanation that I can fathom is that people are so used to the current system and so resistant to change, that they are blind to the reality of the situation.
    The path is clear
    Though no eyes can see
    The course laid down long before.
    And so with gods and men
    The sheep remain inside their pen,
    Though many times they've seen the way to leave.

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