Reply With QuoteIf I can be taxed then so can everyone else.
Anyone politician who believes different will not get my vote and should be impeached.
from the Buffalo News
Pataki delays collection of Indian taxes 1/21/2004
ALBANY - Gov. George E. Pataki on Tuesday said the state should delay for at least a year the collection of taxes on the sales of cigarettes and gasoline to non-Indians by tribal retailers. The proposal was immediately derided by some lawmakers and health groups.
Instead of collecting the taxes, Pataki said he will try to negotiate deals with Indian tribes to bring their tax-free goods more in line with prices charged by non-Indians.
With the backdrop of violence the last time the state tried to collect the taxes, Pataki said it is "far better" to work out deals through "cooperation instead of confrontation."
Critics condemned the governor's move as capitulating to threats of violence by Senecas and other Indians. They also noted that the Senecas, who dominate tax-free cigarette sales in New York, already have pledged not to agree to any arrangements to bring their products in parity with non-Indian retailers.
The governor's plan would give Indian retailers at least another year to enjoy a major competitive edge over non-Indian retailers, who have seen sales plummet by half in some areas since the last big state cigarette tax hike a couple of years ago.
Estimates have ranged widely, but backers of going after the lost taxes say the state is losing at least $500 million a year on gasoline and cigarette tax revenues to Indian retailers.
Pataki's proposal, buried deep inside his 2004-05 state budget released Tuesday, needs legislative approval. The Legislature's top Democrat, Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, D-Manhattan, indicated he was open to the delay.
"We appreciate the fact that the governor wants to engage in a dialogue with the Indian nations on this issue," said Rickey L. Armstrong Sr., president of the Seneca Nation of Indians. He called Pataki's move a "positive step" to reach a deal "respectful of our sovereignty and our deeply held belief in the rightness of our cause."
But one Seneca leader, Barry Snyder, dismissed any talk of future tax deals with Pataki.
"By him backing off doesn't change a whole lot. It doesn't make him a better person or more respectful. If he wanted to deal with it he'd say he recognizes the Buffalo Creek Treaty and - there'd not be any taxation issues," said Snyder, referring to the treaty Senecas believe exempts their retail operations from any taxes.+"I can speak for 99 percent of Senecas. We will never sign any sort of tax agreement with the state," Snyder added.
James Calvin, head of a trade group representing non-Indian convenience store owners, condemned the proposed delay in tax collection, which the U.S. Supreme Court ruled 10 years ago the state has a right to collect.
"There's a logical, workable, constitutionally sound solution on the table. Just do it," he said.
The Legislature last year ordered Pataki to begin collecting the sales tax.
But the governor last fall delayed the collection until sometime in March. He insisted the legislative edict would harm the state's relations with Indian tribes, with whom he is also trying to cut new casino expansion deals.
The new one-year delay proposed Tuesday would give Pataki time to work out side deals with each of the state's tribes. Such arrangements have been said to include steps in which tribes would charge the tax, but keep the money for themselves. Though the state wouldn't get the tax money directly, the theory goes that the state would benefit by ending the incentive for smokers and drivers to flock to the tax-free Indian sales.
Critics say such arrangements would be filled with loopholes, providing Indian retailers still with an unfair, competitive edge. They add that Pataki has little bargaining room since the Indians, for instance, already are making huge profits from the tobacco and gasoline sales and already are in line to get more casinos in Western New York and the Catskills under a 2001 gambling law.
"What would make the Senecas want to come to the table?" said Dan Finkle, a Fulton County tobacco distributor and spokesman for a consortium of business and health groups fighting to end the tax-free sales.
"The governor is not taking the honest, taxpaying person into account. He's just forcing legitimate business people out of business," Finkle said.
Russell Sciandra, director of the Center for a Tobacco Free New York, called the Pataki plan "deplorable." He said the state raised cigarette taxes with the stated purpose of trying to get more people to quit smoking. "To perpetuate this loophole is very regrettable," he said. The group estimates ending tax-free sales would, through higher prices, cut cigarette consumption by 5 percent.
Senate Majority Leader Joseph L. Bruno, a Rensselaer County Republican, criticized the plan by his Republican governor. "They owe it, contrary to the ads I see on television," Bruno said of the taxes and the anti-tax ad campaign funded by the Senecas that has been playing around the state. He said the state "ought to collect what is owed to the state."
But Silver, Pataki's usual nemesis on budget matters, was more open. He said Pataki's plan is "worth a try" if it can bring in the tax revenues through agreements with the tribes.
The Pataki administration, in its budget plan, estimates it can collect $40 million in revenues because of deals it will make with tribes in the coming year. The administration did not say which tribes it believes will agree to price-parity arrangements, though it has been close with the Oneida and St. Regis Mohawk tribes.
The price differences on cigarettes, for instance, have made some Seneca retailers, who sell their products via smoke shops and the Internet, increasingly rich as the state turned to higher taxes over the years. The state's per-pack excise tax is $1.50, up from 39 cents less than four years ago. A name-brand carton of cigarettes now sells for about $40 in many non-Indian retail outlets; Indian firms charge about $25 for the same product.
If I can be taxed then so can everyone else.
Anyone politician who believes different will not get my vote and should be impeached.
This is Treason.
Such action by the state effectively violates treaties established between two sovereign nations – the Seneca Nation of Indians and the United States of America.
Break a Treaty, Break the Law.
A CALL FOR HONORING SENECA NATION TREATIES
THERE IS NOTHING SOVERIGN ABOUT THE SENECAS! THEIR ROACHES!
The supreme court ruled that Indians are US citizens and must obey state and federal laws and can be legislated to pay taxes.
Indian sovereignty is nothing more than an administrative privilege.
The Seneca Nation has embarked on a media campaign that is marked with misinformation in order to keep an illegal and anti-competitive advantage over honest businesses. In their recent advertisement they cite The 1842 Treaty of Buffalo Creek as the source of the tax free status they claim precludes taxation of non-Indians on Indian land. This is simply not true. In fact Barry Snyder, a former president of the Seneca Nation and then owner of Seneca Hawk raised this treaty in his defense against the imposition of taxes and penalties due for his failure to collect these taxes from non-Indians. This position was rejected by the Appellate Division of the New York Supreme Court, Third Department in Snyder v. Wetzler, 193 A.D.2d 329. In that decision the court held that the provisions of that treaty regarding taxation was only with regard to property taxes. This decision was affirmed by the New York Court of Appeals on December 1, 1994, in Snyder v. Wetzler, 84 N.Y.2d 941. What the advertisements also do not tell you is that the Seneca Nation by its attorney Joseph Crangle filed a friend of the Court brief and argued their case in support of Mr. Snyder and Mr. Snyder still lost.Originally posted by Night Owl
Such action by the state effectively violates treaties established between two sovereign nations – the Seneca Nation of Indians and the United States of America.
Break a Treaty, Break the Law.
A CALL FOR HONORING SENECA NATION TREATIES
Personally, I make sure that as a juror that I say that I will exempt from prosecution anyone that shoots to kill an Indian committing physical violence during a protest. If the Indians want to threaten violence to threaten the law enforcers, the tax collectors or politicians then I say no more negotiation we should respond with the full vengence of the law.
The US states defines sovereignty as self administration much like when a town incorporates not as a foreign government. Indians are subject to state taxes, federal taxes, state and federal laws and imminent domain.
The Indians have lost nearly every supreme court lawsuit because their not sovereign.
I used to like and support Indians....I even donated money to their former Turtle Museum in Niagara Falls and asked my representatives to be fair when dealing with Indians needs.
However, with all the taxes that have gone up because of indians buying land and property and businesses that are tax exempt, with all the businesses that have gone bankrupt because they cannot compete with indian businesses, with all the land claim lawsuits being filed and the hardships caused while that lawsuit is being prosecuted, with all the evils that are accompanying their casinos like gambling addiction, alcohol&drug addiction, prostitution....they have lost all my sympathy and support.
I only support Indians that live off reservation and pay the same taxes that I do and I have called every representative told those in jurer selection that I will absolve anyone that uses the fullest extent of the law dealing with Indian violence and intimidation even if that means shoot to kill!Personally, I make sure that as a juror that I say that I will exempt from prosecution anyone that shoots to kill an Indian committing physical violence during a protest. If the Indians want to threaten violence to threaten the law enforcers, the tax collectors or politicians then I say no more negotiation we should respond with the full vengence of the law.
What about all the churches that don't pay taxes? the Monte carlo nights, Night at the races, not to mention bingo. Should we shoot them too?
"If you want to know what God thinks of money just look at the people he gave it to."
By the way, what happened to biker? I miss the old coot.
Churches are provided a real property tax exemption in our State Constitution and in the Tax Law. This was authorized by the people of this state. When you buy something at one of their stores they still collect the sales tax because YOU were not granted that exemption. Even though the Indian Nations and their land are tax exempt that does not relieve YOU of the tax and does not give them the right to refuse to collect the tax from YOU.
It should not be necessary to again emphasize that this is not a case about land taxes, personal property taxes, or income taxes, nor has any Indian been subjected to taxation. Rather, "the competitive advantage which the Indian seller doing business on tribal land enjoys over all other . . . retailers, within and without the reservation, is dependent on the extent to which the non-Indian purchaser is willing to flout his legal obligation to pay the tax" (Moe v Confederated Salish & Kootenai Tribes of Flathead Reservation, 425 U.S. 463, at 482 [emphasis in original]).
Since I have been on this site I have heard a lot about free enterprize and market value, How it is ok for walmart to force manufacturers to close shop here and make thier products over seas to keep walmart prices down. Even though this causes a loss of american jobs people say it is good for the econemy because now people get more for thier dollar increasing thier disposable income ETC.
If I can buy a carton of cigarettes at the rez for 23 bucks as opposed to 40 bucks in a deli then isn't that the same thing?
Whats the difference if my dollars go to the senecas or the chinese?
At least the senecas will spend some of thier profit buying cars and other goods that will help the economy. I say God Bless them. It's good for me, it's good for them. I shall continue to buy my tobbacco products and my gasoline from them and for a night out you can't beat the Buffet at the casino. And who knows? Maybe you'll win a little cash to boot.
"If you want to know what God thinks of money just look at the people he gave it to."
By the way, what happened to biker? I miss the old coot.
No, too dangerous... those bingo grannies are well armed!Originally posted by citymouse
What about all the churches that don't pay taxes? the Monte carlo nights, Night at the races, not to mention bingo. Should we shoot them too?
Interesting point, actually. Never thought of it that way. But it still depends on what their true rights are in regard to taxes. What does the treaty actually say? or is it vague on this issue.Originally posted by citymouse
Whats the difference if my dollars go to the senecas or the chinese? At least the senecas will spend some of thier profit buying cars and other goods that will help the economy.
dtwarren - you seem to have actual legal info on the treaties. do you have a link to your sources that clearly states what they have been granted?
Churches and businesses such as hospitals earn their right to be tax exempt because they are deamed by the community to satisfy a valuable service and need to the community. Are you comparing your purchase of gasoline, cigarettes, and gambling to pastoring and nurturing your immortal soul, to serving the homeless, the destitute, the sick and the dying, the hungry, orphanages, etc.
I would glady call upon the religious community to stop their bingo and raffles if the senecas agreed to pay taxes.
Tell me something. When you see a bankrupt business in your community do you think that it might have closed because it lost its customers to the senecas, when you see a foreclosed home do you think that they lost their home and their savings gambling, when you see a child prostitute do you think that they are hooking because they gambled their tuition, when you see spousal abuse do you think its caused by gambling, alcohol or drug addiction related to their casino!
Your comparing the morality of Walmart to the Senecas...hmmm. I have never heard of Walmart being physically violent or threatening physical violence to those communities where they have been zoned out, or claiming soverienty when the state taxes them for shifting their non-payments of benefits onto the state.
You want to patronize Seneca businesses, then you are free to do so but whether you accept it or not you are responsible for the evils that this brings to your community and as such you are cursed by inviting these burdens onto yourself, your family, your neighbors and your community now and for future generations.!!!!
Tell me something. When you see a bankrupt business in your community do you think that it might have closed because it lost its customers to the senecas, when you see a foreclosed home do you think that they lost their home and their savings gambling, when you see a child prostitute do you think that they are hooking because they gambled their tuition, when you see spousal abuse do you think its caused by gambling, alcohol or drug addiction related to their casino!
No no no and no! These issues have been around alot longer than the Seneca's tobacco and gasoline ventures!
I do no think that a casino will bring the quick economic fix that many think it will but I don't think it's the end of Western Civ either!
A little persepctive PLEASE!
No its not the end of western civilization. I do have perspective.
You want to patronize Seneca businesses, then you are free to do so but whether you accept it or not you are responsible for the evils that this brings to your community and as such you are cursed by inviting these burdens onto yourself, your family, your neighbors and your community now and for future generations.!!!!
THERE IS NOTHING MORALLY ACCEPTABLE ABOUT ALLOWING ANYONE TO THREATEN/USE PHYSICAL VIOLENCE TO INTIMIDATE INDIVIDUALS OR ELECTED OFFICIALS, TO NOT PAY THEIR OBLIGATED TAXES TO SUPPORT THEIR COMMUNITIES, TO CLAIM EXEMPTION FROM THE LAWS THAT WE ALL LIVE AND ABIDE BY, ACT AS A PARASITE FEEDING OFF OF THEY LIVELIHOODS OF OTHERS.
DOES ANYONE REMEMBER WHEN THE SENECAS PROMISED THAT THEY ONLY WANTED TO OPERATE A CASINO AND HAD NO INTENTION OF COMPETING WITH LOCAL BUSINESS. HMMMM, SINCE WHEN ARE CIGARETTES, GASOLINE, THEATRE, RESTAURANTS, SPAS, PARKING GARAGES, HOTELS, ETC NOT COMPETING WITH LOCAL TAX PAYING BUSINESSES! OH, AND BY THE WAY, ALL THAT REVENUE FROM THAT TAX EXEMPTION..THERE IS NO INDIAN LAW THAT SHARES THAT REVENUE EQUALLY WITH ALL TRIBES AND ALL INDIANS TO IMPROVE THE WELFARE OF ALL INDIANS OR IMPROVE THE WELFARE OF THEIR SURROUNDING COMMUNITIES. YOU SIMPLY HAVE TO BE MORALLY BANKRUPT AND WITHOUT ANY MORAL CONSCIENCE TO SEE THAT THERE IS NOT SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE! PERHAPS INSTEAD OF RESPONDING TO ME YOU SHOULD FEED YOUR CATS!!! YOU LONELY SOULLESS PERSON!!!
I would but I ate the last of their food yesterday.
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