View Poll Results: Do you support a required minimum wage?

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  • Yes, I support the idea of a minimum wage.

    64 55.17%
  • No, No I don't believe there should be a minimum wage.

    52 44.83%
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Thread: The Minimum Wage

  1. #1
    Member mikewrona's Avatar
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    The Minimum Wage

    There is considerable debate as to the value of the minimum wage in the U.S.
    I for one believe that it is necessary. Even the American Industrialist Henry Ford realized that over a 100 years ago when he instituted the minimum $5 a day pay rate for his auto workers. This shocked his business competitors who though that such an income would drive them out of business.

    What htye found out instead was that when people who normally don't have money get money they spend it on things they need causing sales to increase. What the sense in having workers who can afford to purchase the products the make.

    Please take th epoll and get involved in this debate.

    I'd appreciate it if the debate is limited to attacking the message and not the messanger.

  2. #2
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    The minimum wage, such as it is, is an economic necessity -- now so more than ever as we move more and more to a WalMart economy. WalMart and its kind clearly don't give a hoot about the well being of our country's workers and would pay them in WalMart underwear and socks if it could.

  3. #3
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    A minimum wage is a great thing to have, but it is sometimes not as easy to put into practice. Example: You have a job with a set maximum amount to get paid per week. The hourly pay is set at a certain amount. But, if you work more hours per week than you regularly would, you could end up making less than the minimum wage.

  4. #4
    Member mikewrona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atotaltotalfan2001
    The minimum wage, such as it is, is an economic necessity -- now so more than ever as we move more and more to a WalMart economy. WalMart and its kind clearly don't give a hoot about the well being of our country's workers and would pay them in WalMart underwear and socks if it could.
    I was hoping that this would turn into a good discussion. There are definitely people who think a minimum wage is a hinderance to business competition and growth. As far a SUWNY goes this could be a good measure of the members opinions.

  5. #5
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    There's very little argument here. Where's the debate?

    Why should we control the price of labor and not all other prices? Who will control prices? What is their expertise? The economic ignoramuses in Albany?

    What should the minimum wage be?

    And let's not call it a minimum wage law, call it what it is: a mandatory unemployment law. It mandates unemployment. Why are you for unemployment?

    Those shut out of our highly regulated labor markets don't commit suicide. They go underground and into the black market: drugs, sex, petty theft. Then liberal politicians like Byron Brown thrown into jail to improve our “quality of life.”

    You see them in the arraignment part of City Court every morning. Ever seen it? I've seen it for 21 years.

    There are better ways to help the working poor such as tax cuts. We have already proposed them. You support the minimum wage and then tax the living hell out the wage earners.

    Let's take a poll after the debate.

  6. #6
    Member mikewrona's Avatar
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    The first and foremost reasn for a minimum wage is the fact that anti-minimum wage supporters don't want the worker to benefit from their labor.

    The argument against the minimum has never centered around the benefit to the work, but, around decline in profits.

    When there is Inflation? Capitalists blame it on workers attempting to get higher wages.

    When there is unemployment? Capitalists blame it on the workers overpricing their labor power.

    When there is increased poverty? Thatalso is the fault of workers trying to raise the minimum wage.

    And yet for any argument that can be placed against the minimum wage and living wage salaries paid to other workers one indisputable fact remains.
    This is from Forbes.com: "More than half of these billionaires—341—are in the US, a jump of 69 over last year. But while the ranks, and personal fortunes, of these super-rich has risen, there has been a corresponding deterioration of the basic infrastructure relied upon by ordinary Americans in their everyday life—roads, railroads, public schools, and other basic necessities. In many cases, these structures are literally crumbling.

    The US billionaires’ club this year has some familiar faces and some new ones, and the amounts pulled in by its members are staggering. Thirteen of the top 25 billionaires in the world are US citizens... Average wealth is $3.2 billion."

    To give the reader a real sense of what the aver billionaire is worth, consider this: The Census bureau reports the median income in the U.S. to be $43,318
    It would take 73872.29327 citizens to be worth 1 typical U.S. billionaire.

    The problem isn't the poor making too much.

    A good minimum wage ensures that employers will be forced to pay a living wage to all other workers.

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    You didn't answer most of my points. Why do you favor unemployment? What do you do with the people you've shut out of the labor market?

    In the market, workers want to be paid all the wealth in the world; employers want to pay zero. Supply and demand, competition among workers and employers and the productivity of the worker ultimately determines the wage. The feelings of capitalists have little to do with it. If they did, everyone in the world would make the minimum wage.

    If the worker is worth $10 an hour to the employer, he will pay up to that level and no more. Why pay up to that level? Because the worker is free to work for anyone else on earth (in a free market--although liberals make it very difficult for people to get jobs and to hire people). Employers gradually bid up the price of labor to what economists call the discounted marginal value product, but that's jargon for productivity.

    Here's the technical explanation:

    "A capitalist will be willing to hire an additional unit of a productive resource so long as its rental price is lower than its discounted marginal value product (DMVP). The marginal value product (MVP) is the additional revenue that can be imputed to the marginal unit of a productive factor. The discounted MVP is then simply the present market value of the (future) MVP. For example, if an additional hour of labor will generate $110 of additional revenue in one year's time, a prospective employer will pay no more than $100 today to hire this worker if the interest rate is 10 percent."

    http://www.mises.org/rothbard/mes/guidechap7.asp

  8. #8
    Member yokes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewrona
    A good minimum wage ensures that employers will be forced to pay a living wage to all other workers.
    Artificially setting the value of the labor market in a demand economy does exactly the opposite. Since most business' in the world are selling some sort of good or service, and the market determines the value for that good/service.

    Mandating a cost that cannot be passed along because it is inflated to the market value cause declines in profits on the sale of said items/services.

    Since most people run business' for profit, when profits go down, they react. So to maintain the balance either they hire less people or cut wages that arent mandated (all other workers) in an effort to rebalance the business.

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    Mike--I don't really get your points--but EVERYONE in the market and EVERYONE in the government is seeking a (subjective) profit all the time, so that's hardly the basis for justifying a minimum wage.

    The difference is the government uses force to get profits; (law-abiding) business does not.

    For example, when they impose this bad law on poor workers, politicians themselves profit because the unions, none of whom make the minimum, support this law (out of self-interest), and give money to politicians who do likewise. So, the politician’s pursuit of profit harms poor people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ostrowski
    Why do you favor unemployment? What do you do with the people you've shut out of the labor market?
    Historically, has there been a spike in unemployment claims following a minimum wage raise?

  11. #11
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    Shouldn't the minimum wage be equal for all, if at all? Why should someone at McDonald's make minimum but a waitress make less. Tips or no tips the wage should apply to all.

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    I guess James O. wants any menial laborer in this country to be paid and live the same lifestyle as migrant workers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ostrowski
    In the market, workers want to be paid all the wealth in the world; employers want to pay zero. Supply and demand, competition among workers and employers and the productivity of the worker ultimately determines the wage.

    Or you allow illegal immigration into the country and import a desperate work force and exploit them.

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    "Historically, has there been a spike in unemployment claims following a minimum wage raise?"

    I'm not sure. You see, if you have an inflationary boom like Greenspan engineered for Clinton, unemployment might not increase right away. But in those cases, there was no need to raise the rate.

    As far as menial labor--please, make an argument.

    Wages are based on productivity which is based on investment. There's an inverse relationship between investment and the amount of money sucked out of the system by the political class.

    The people who will benefit the most from the Free Buffalo movement are the people at the bottom.

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    Whether or not there's immigration, the laws of economics do not change.

    Labor will be paid to its level of productivity.

    Why don't you start an immigration thread?

    By the way, if you believe your pay is too low, blame your bosses--the consumers who buy the products or services you produce--they determine your pay and benefits and even your working conditions indirectly.

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