The Virtues of Thomas Jefferson

[DelawareDistrict]

This is a continuation of the topic which developed in the minimum wage poll thread.

[DelawareDistrict]

This is a reply to this post.

The Declaration of Independence freed the 13 colonies from British rule.

The "shackles" remained when Thomas Jefferson compromised his beliefs and this passage was removed from the very document that declared independence for all Americans.

"He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating it's most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobium of INFIDEL powers, is the warfare of the CHRISTIAN king of Great Britain. Determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought & sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce. And that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people on whom he also obtruded them: thus paying off former crimes committed against the LIBERTIES of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the LIVES of another"

Thomas Jefferson had resolved to free his slaves when he drafted that declaration. Nevertheless, he continued to be a practitioner of slavery for another 50 years.

oh, the humanity.

Nice try!

Jefferson wrote that passage and it was removed by the Congress.

It was at the insistence of South Carolina and Georgia, with little concern from the northern states, that it was removed.

This passage, Jefferson wrote at the time, "was struck out in complaisance to South Carolina and Georgia, who had never attempted to restrain the importation of slaves, and who on the contrary wished to continue it. Our Northern brethern also I believe felt a little tender under those censures, for tho' their people have very few slaves themselves yet they had been pretty considerable carriers of them to others."

Jefferson did not invent slavery, it was a product of the times. Trying to place the burden of guilt on one man who tried to end slavery is a prime example of revisionist history.

[Ragin]

This is a reply to this post.


Nice try!

Jefferson wrote that passage and it was removed by the Congress.

It was at the insistence of South Carolina and Georgia, with little concern from the northern states, that it was removed.


Jefferson did not invent slavery, it was a product of the times. Trying to place the burden of guilt on one man who tried to end slavery is a prime example of revisionist history.

I am well aware of how the removal of that passage came about.

I never said Thomas Jefferson invented slavery. And yes, it was a product of the times, but that doesn't make it right. Thomas Jefferson knew slavery was an atrocity against humanity, yet he was a practitioner.

TJ resolved to release his slaves in 1776, when he wrote the Declaration of Independence. After that passage was removed by congress, Thomas Jefferson continued to practice slavery up until the day he died 50 years later. And even then, he did not release his slaves, all his slaves, in his will as was previously implied.

You can twist my words, and make my statements and opinions appear to be without merit, but you'll never convince me that Thomas Jefferson is one to be admired for his high moral character.

[steven]

Trying to place the burden of guilt on one man who tried to end slavery is a prime example of revisionist history.

If he was such an ardent fan of trying to get rid of slavery then why where the only slaves freed in his will the ones purported to be his children? Why didnt he free all of them?

On a side note who woulda thunk we had so much montecello mafia right here in buffalo.

For those not in the Know the monticello mafia includes such groups as "The God and Country Foundation" that will go to any lengths to make sure none of the founding fathers are seen as any thing less than god like characters.

IMHO blind hero worship of this sort does more harm than good, accepting that all people are flawed is the only way one can begin to understand history. Looking at history with eyes over awed leads to false conclusions in what motivates the people that shaped history.

Of course I have no masters degree so take my humble thoughts for what they are worth.......

[DelawareDistrict]

If he was such an ardent fan of trying to get rid of slavery then why where the only slaves freed in his will the ones purported to be his children? Why didnt he free all of them?

On a side note who woulda thunk we had so much montecello mafia right here in buffalo.

For those not in the Know the monticello mafia includes such groups as "The God and Country Foundation" that will go to any lengths to make sure none of the founding fathers are seen as any thing less than god like characters.

IMHO blind hero worship of this sort does more harm than good, accepting that all people are flawed is the only way one can begin to understand history. Looking at history with eyes over awed leads to false conclusions in what motivates the people that shaped history.

Of course I have no masters degree so take my humble thoughts for what they are worth.......

The question of Jefferson's motives for freeing only 5 slaves rather than all slaves, in his will, is interesting but meaningless without the answer.

The "God and Country Foundation" (had to google it since I never heard of it) was formed mainly to address the issue of Jefferson boinking Sally Hennings. What relevance that has to minimum wage, or anything else, is beyond me. Many Presidents allegedly had affairs; Clinton, Kennedy, Johnson, Roosevelt, Cleveland and Bush Sr.

[Linda_D]

I used to be a fan of Thomas Jefferson, but the more I read about the Revolutionary War and the Early National Period, the less I thought of Jefferson. Quite frankly, Jefferson "talked the talk" but he sure didn't "walk the walk", ie, what he wrote in his political writings were completely divorced from how he conducted his life.

On the issue of slavery, the argument that "Jefferson was a product of his times" is bogus. The experience and rhetoric of the Revolution convinced many contemporaries to free their personal slaves and/or work for the abolition of slavery within their states. It was not uncommon for slaveholders in the South in the Early National Period to free their slaves at their death, even though this greatly reduced their wealth. George Washington, for example, freed as many of the Mount Vernon slaves as he could (for more on GW and his attitudes on slavery, see Henry Wiencek's An Imperfect God: George Washington, His Slaves, and the Creation of America).

In a similar vein, Jefferson advocated an idealized simplistic agrarian country based on "yeoman" farmers. These were, supposedly his heroes. In fact, Jefferson lived much like any English aristocrat on his grand estate, spending money he didn't have on building his grand house and living a lavish lifestyle.

The contrast between Jefferson's words and actions continue. Jefferson criticized the Federalists, especially Hamiliton and Adams, for expanding the government and limiting freedom of the press, he did the very same thing when he became POTUS. Despite his "belief" in limiting government powers to those listed in the US Constitution, he jumped at the chance to buy Louisiana. He used all the resources of the federal government to attack newspaper editors opposed to his policies.

[DelawareDistrict]

Jefferson limiting freedom of the press? Part of the reason he was elected POTUS in 1800 was his support of public opposition to the Sedition Act of 1798. He subsequently pardoned al those convicted under the Act.

And the Louisianna Purchase was bad why?

Jefferson's ideology on the subject of slavery are clear; his first effort as a member of the House of Burgesses was a failed attempt to pass a law providing for the emancipation of all slaves in Virginia. Later he successfully passed a bill blocking the importation of slaves to the state. His legislative record is solid, and his words support the abolition of slavery just as fervently. The "all men are created equal" line from the Declaration of Independence is well-known, but it is also common knowledge that prior drafts of the Declaration contained even more ardent anti-slavery language that was struck out by Congress.

[buffy]

Jefferson was a rascal ...but his wife was worse...thinking that their three daughters would suffer if he took another wife, his wife made the unrealistic demand upon her death bed that he never remarry. After she died, he had to go to great lengths to conceal his sex-capades. He went to France a lot in those days pre-papparrozzi-believing America was far away...while in America, he dated socialites but cavorted with Sally Jemmings...Sally served an important purpose to TJ, but Sally Jemmings was not taken care of conspicuously well. He may have had some virtues, but he was far from virtuous.

p.s. where in the world is the spell-check button?

[Jim Ostrowski]

What I support is Jeffersonianism, which is a system of political ideas unrelated to anyone's personal behavior or behavior while in office. It's a set of ideas, ideas which, by and large, Jefferson did not originate, but which he elucidated splendidly.

A closely related but probably not identical system of ideas is Lockean liberalism. You can't discredit Lockean liberalism by proving that John Locke beat his wife or failed to attend church on Sunday.

[steven]

What relevance that has to minimum wage, or anything else, is beyond me.

Indeed, that is why I said very clearly in the thread why all the invoking of Thomas Jeffersons Name. We where talking about money. Since the guy died with what would have been millions of dollars in debt in todays money he is the last person who's name should pop up in any discussion having to do with economics.

It's a set of ideas, ideas which, by and large, Jefferson did not originate, but which he elucidated splendidly

That's like giving Microsoft the credit for inventing computers, they didn't do it but they boot strapped better than anyone else.

[crlachepinochet]

What I support is Jeffersonianism, which is a system of political ideas unrelated to anyone's personal behavior or behavior while in office. It's a set of ideas, ideas which, by and large, Jefferson did not originate, but which he elucidated splendidly.

A closely related but probably not identical system of ideas is Lockean liberalism. You can't discredit Lockean liberalism by proving that John Locke beat his wife or failed to attend church on Sunday.

Yes, all the arguing about Jefferson´s life seems a little after-the-fact, doesn´t it? As if his affairs or debt discount his ideas on government? JO saying he is a Jeffersonian thinker isn´t a veiled admission of racism or him re-marrying against a promise to his dead wife or anything silly like that. When you say something is Darwinian, you´re not talking about his attitude towards women or his views on national economies. I mean, I disagree with JO about the minimum wage and I don´t feel the need to play "founding father paparazzo"... so maybe we´re looking for faults a little too hard?

[Ragin]

crlachepinochet ..

Delaware District felt the desire to create a thread to discuss the virtues of Thomas Jefferson. In fact, he quoted my post on a previous thread as a starting point for discussion.

Thomas Jefferson's lifestyle, beliefs, and behaviors, good and bad, are fair game.

[Linda_D]

Yes, all the arguing about Jefferson´s life seems a little after-the-fact, doesn´t it? As if his affairs or debt discount his ideas on government? JO saying he is a Jeffersonian thinker isn´t a veiled admission of racism or him re-marrying against a promise to his dead wife or anything silly like that. When you say something is Darwinian, you´re not talking about his attitude towards women or his views on national economies. I mean, I disagree with JO about the minimum wage and I don´t feel the need to play "founding father paparazzo"... so maybe we´re looking for faults a little too hard?

The problem with Jefferson is that his words have made him the hero of individual rights and limited government when, in fact, he lived his life and governed the country in opposite fashion. His name is invoked today as the embodiment of certain virtues, but his writings are divorced from the real man.

[Jim Ostrowski]

"The problem with Jefferson is that his words have made him the hero of individual rights and limited government when, in fact, he lived his life and governed the country in opposite fashion. His name is invoked today as the embodiment of certain virtues, but his writings are divorced from the real man."

And your knowledge of how he lived his life is based on........?

[tronix75]

If he was such an ardent fan of trying to get rid of slavery then why where the only slaves freed in his will the ones purported to be his children? Why didnt he free all of them?

Basically Steven..he couldn't free his slaves...legally.
The laws of the states determined how adult slaves could be made freeman.
You couldn't just dump them out there with no place to go, there were fears that these freed slaves would resort to crime to survive if they were just pushed out on society.
You see the same kind of logic these days, I’ve heard a number of people say that if we ended social welfare, (a form of modern day slavery) all the poor people would be rampaging through the streets robbing and pillaging.

If you were the slaveholder who wished to free his slaves, the requirements were usually that you had to arrange employment for them, and you had to have a fund set aside for them, kind of like a trust fund to get them by for some years.
Jefferson was in considerable debt, so he didn’t have the money to provide for their release, besides his slaves actually belonged to his creditors.
George Washington on the other hand was wealthy, he provided a large fund in his will for his slaves freedom, which happened upon his death.

It wasn’t as simple as what it would seem to free slaves, there were political problems too in Jefferson’s case, if he could have just freed his slaves earlier in life, he would never have been able to garner political support from the southern states, therefore he would never have been able to get into office to do what he could to stop the expansion of slavery. He specifically wanted to stop the further importation of slaves as a major step to ending slavery. It was not an enviable position to be in; he was basically between a rock and a hard place.


"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe