Alan's Ideas...

[CSense]

School consolidation is the third rail of local politics, but it needs to be addressed. Some of the obvious ones should be merged - Amherst's, Cheektowaga's. Most areas in the country have a single, unified, regionwide school district. It's something that needs to be talked about.

Agreed.

County manager - I dunno. Maybe let the comptroller hire him. All he'd be doing is making sure Albany money gets spent here properly.

Why not just have him/her elected? I see the "possibility" of collusion. It only be one more elected official.

Although I could go the other way to, have a smaller legislature with an appointed manager, sherriff, comptroller and clerk.

There is no perfect solution to any of this. These are just a few of the points that I think would address our underlying problems.

Just trying to tweak, I see alot of good ideas.

[Dougles]

So then I'm partly right?

yes, it's another tax on the middle to upper class ( i hope the poor aren't buying any clothes that cost $200 with our money!)

[buffalopundit]

Agreed.


Why not just have him/her elected? I see the "possibility" of collusion. It only be one more elected official.

Although I could go the other way to, have a smaller legislature with an appointed manager, sherriff, comptroller and clerk.


Just trying to tweak, I see alot of good ideas.

Understood. I appreciate it. The reason I went with manager is because I have become a big fan of the county/city manager model. I'd like to have professionals who know what they're doing administer programs and spend taxpayer money, and have the decisions based on need rather than political expediency.

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

Thanks for the facts, i'll let you stick with your STUPID ASSUMPTIONS!

Did you actually expect facts from Linda or for her to go in depth on how she forms her opinions? Don't hold your breath.


The result of an Upstate/Downstate divide can only be hypothesized. The results of this split would be based on what what each new state would product of it's new State Constitution. Each new constitution would of course be voted on by the resident population.

What you can talk about is what a State of Upstate would have and not have going for it.

In terms of Power - Upstate would have 2-3 of the Hydro Power facilities depending on where Albany falls in the Upstate/Downstate shift. The Niagara Power Project and the St. Lawrence Power Project produce 10,400,000 kilowatts in CLEAN Energy. The Blenheim Project just east of Albany produces another 1,100,000.

In comparison, the power plants in Downstate are all Fossil-Fueled Facilities and the Big 3 in NYC and Suffolk County produce just 1,520,000 kilowatts.

This is a HUGE advantage for Upstate in both the amount and TYPE of energy produced.

In terms of Labor Law - Upstate would have much easier rules and regulations now that Labor and Unions are not as nearly strong as they once were or in comparison to Downstate. While one could suggest that Upstate would be starting off with less, it would have a MUCH MUCH easier path to growth because of this.

In terms of Social Services - Upstate again would have a never establish a Medicaid program that is the most expensive in the US. It would have costs similar to Ohio which shares a similar voting mentality. Same with welfare and down the line.


What people like Linda fail to grasp is an Upstate/Downstate divide should not be framed on what the states would IMEDIATLY look like after the divide but rather what each states potential/opportunity would be, weighed against it's challenges.

A New State of Upstate would have around 6,500,000 residents which is similar to Arizona. It would have a abundant supply of CLEAN and CHEAP power if the system was cleaned up. It would have less regulations and what regulations existed would ALWAYS be in the best interest of the demographics served.

[run4it]

Thanks for the facts, i'll let you stick with your STUPID ASSUMPTIONS!

Facts...or studies at least:

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/24/ny...-em-loose.html

Some of the upstaters' enthusiasm is based on the mistaken belief that their money is supporting New York City's welfare state. That notion has been rebutted by a number of studies, most recently from the Center for Governmental Research, a public-policy group in Rochester.
The study found that New York City residents and businesses send Albany slightly more in taxes than they receive back in state spending. The whole metropolitan area -- the city along with Long Island and the other in-state suburbs -- sends about $5 billion more upstate than it gets back, with much of that being paid by suburbanites who commute to the city.

[run4it]

And by the way Dougie...speaking of stupid assumptions:

What exactly is it that makes you think that, were upstate to establish separate statehood, the type of government wouldn't be much the same it is now? What is it that makes you so arrogantly assume that enough people actually agree with your way of thinking so that everything would be how YOU think and envision it should? Have you not figured out yet that on so many issues, you are the in the (often vast) minority?

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

Facts...or studies at least:

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/24/ny...-em-loose.html

Some of the upstaters' enthusiasm is based on the mistaken belief that their money is supporting New York City's welfare state. That notion has been rebutted by a number of studies, most recently from the Center for Governmental Research, a public-policy group in Rochester.
The study found that New York City residents and businesses send Albany slightly more in taxes than they receive back in state spending. The whole metropolitan area -- the city along with Long Island and the other in-state suburbs -- sends about $5 billion more upstate than it gets back, with much of that being paid by suburbanites who commute to the city.

To counter, this is only looking at one piece of the puzzle...taxes.

I think it is safe to say that if Upstate was able to exclusively determine what was mandated, the cost and by product the aid would be lowered. Thus showing that Upstate does not needs Downstate if Upstate is making the calls on what and how much is spent on items.

70% of the Erie County Budget comes from unfunded mandates from the State of New York. If these unfunded mandates were lowered or removed to reflect the tax revenues of Upstate New York, Upstate would not need the tax revenue from Downstate income.

I think where the confusion lies is people are discussing revenue against cost based on New York State numbers NOT an Upstate New York set of numbers.

I would compare your argument to a couple that is dating. Downstate being the bread winner and Upstate being the companion. While the bread winner in the couple makes much more than the other they attend the same events and spend at a high level.

Of course if said couple were to split, the person who makes less would not be able to fund the same lifestyle (tax revenue). But I think it is silly to assume that person would want to continue that lifestyle. The person making less would adjust their lifestyle (mandates, union laws, development numbers) to fit their income.

Furthermore, a "couple" is not just about who brings the most money to the table. There are things like who does the cleaning, laundry and keeps the house in order (Power, Land, Infrastructure and Location) which the bread winner will have to find a new source for. These items will need to be built or paid for in one way or another.

There is no way in hell NYC could provide enough power for which it consumes with the existing facilities that would be located in the "State of New York City" if you will. They would either have to build new plants, which have higher regulation or buy power. The only place with enough spare power to sell would be the "State of Upstate New York" and I am sure the little discount they are getting would not carry over.

The same thing could be said for Universities. Most of the SUNY system is located in Upstate. Just where would the masses of NYC residents send their kids when they did not have a cheap SUNY school in state. Sure NYC could build out a major research school but where and who would pick up that tab?


I think people putting this on who would be better off and making it one or the other. I think both would eventually adjust and do just fine. Similar to a couple splitting and finding their own groove after a period of adjustment.

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

And by the way Dougie...speaking of stupid assumptions:

What exactly is it that makes you think that, were upstate to establish separate statehood, the type of government wouldn't be much the same it is now? What is it that makes you so arrogantly assume that enough people actually agree with your way of thinking so that everything would be how YOU think and envision it should? Have you not figured out yet that on so many issues, you are the in the (often vast) minority?

I am not Dougie, but I would like to take a shot at this.

I do not think a State of Upstate would be right like Texas. It would still carry the same blue collar/middle class mindset and lean to the left or find itself somewhere in the middle.

But I do think that EVERYONE would be open to looking at revising some of the laws and rules that are so one sided (to the left) and bring them closer to the middle.

Remember that a lot of people have left, from both parties. Of those who remain, like yourself, may lean left but have common sense that things do need some correction.

A 180 = no
Modifications that make sense = yes

[Dougles]

And by the way Dougie...speaking of stupid assumptions:

What exactly is it that makes you think that, were upstate to establish separate statehood, the type of government wouldn't be much the same it is now? What is it that makes you so arrogantly assume that enough people actually agree with your way of thinking so that everything would be how YOU think and envision it should? Have you not figured out yet that on so many issues, you are the in the (often vast) minority?

Because the majority of people in Upstate don't have the same Values of those of the upper west side! What your article fails to point out is the HUGE amount of spending upstate has do to fill downstates needs, like the Prison, SUNY, and the 50K state empolyes in Albany! That alone more than makes up for the 5 billion or your source points out. Additionally, it doesn't facotr in the 30% of lost INCOME rom this year do to the crash of wall street. (remember this time last year the stock market was at a record high of 14k).

Not everyone would think my way, but as you see on here the MAJORITY WOULD and that's all it takes in NYS is the majority!

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

Because the majority of people in Upstate don't have the same Values of those of the upper west side! What your article fails to point out is the HUGE amount of spending upstate has do to fill downstates needs, like the Prison, SUNY, and the 50K state empolyes in Albany! That alone more than makes up for the 5 billion or your source points out. Additionally, it doesn't facotr in the 30% of lost INCOME rom this year do to the crash of wall street. (remember this time last year the stock market was at a record high of 14k).

Not everyone would think my way, but as you see on here the MAJORITY WOULD and that's all it takes in NYS is the majority!

Regarding the prison system. The number that is common is 70% of inmates come from the NYC metro region. The 2009/10 cost is 2.6B. 70% of that cost would be 1.8B. Or just over 37% of the $5B that downstate gives to the system.

Additional to this, most of the prisons are located in Upstate..much like most of the resources. So if a split were to happen, not only would downstate have a huge bill for housing inmates, they would have an even bigger bill to construct the facilities to house them. I wonder if they have room on the Upper East Size for a downstate version of Attica?

[Dougles]

Regarding the prison system. The number that is common is 70% of inmates come from the NYC metro region. The 2009/10 cost is 2.6B. 70% of that cost would be 1.8B. Or just over 37% of the $5B that downstate gives to the system.

Additional to this, most of the prisons are located in Upstate..much like most of the resources. So if a split were to happen, not only would downstate have a huge bill for housing inmates, they would have an even bigger bill to construct the facilities to house them. I wonder if they have room on the Upper East Size for a downstate version of Attica?

nah, they could just block in a few blocks of Harlem and have an "escape from NYC" style prison!

[ILOVEDNY]

Originally Posted by DomesticatedFeminist
That's why nyc shouldn't be part of ny state.

Without NYC and its metro, the "state" of "Upstate" would be a financial basket case. "Upstate" would be fighting Mississippi and New Mexico for "poorest state in the Union".

The NYC metro not only has the most people, it also pays the most taxes into state coffers by far. bills.

Doug and DomFem.
Even though the thought of agreeing with Linda D gives me gas pains.
She's right on target.

I did some figuring from the NY State Dept. of taxation and came up with the following numbers.
http://www.tax.state.ny.us/
I included the 5 boroughs of NYC and the surrounding counties of Rockland, Westchester, Nassau and Suffolk as the NYC metro area.

Percentage of sales tax revenue generated from NYC metro area- 67%
Percentage of Income tax generated from NYC metro area- 72%
Percentage of Corperate taxes generated from NYC metro area- 73%

Be careful what you wish for.

[Jim Ostrowski]

"Without NYC and its metro, the "state" of "Upstate" would be a financial basket case. "Upstate" would be fighting Mississippi and New Mexico for "poorest state in the Union".

"The NYC metro not only has the most people, it also pays the most taxes into state coffers by far. bills."

That's an old canard spread around by Downstate types.

Empires always say their colonies are a burden to them.

But they hate to part with them, that's for sure.

http://archives.buffalorising.com/st...ubsidize_upsta

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

"Without NYC and its metro, the "state" of "Upstate" would be a financial basket case. "Upstate" would be fighting Mississippi and New Mexico for "poorest state in the Union".

"The NYC metro not only has the most people, it also pays the most taxes into state coffers by far. bills."

That's an old canard spread around by Downstate types.

Empires always say their colonies are a burden to them.

But they hate to part with them, that's for sure.

http://archives.buffalorising.com/st...ubsidize_upsta

Interesting point on the study being done during the Wall Street boom. I wonder how the numbers will look for income tax revenue when the books are closed on 2008. I have a feeling that the $5Billion number Run pointed out is a little bit less these days.

Also really do not understand why things like power and water (which I did not even think about) are not considered in most peoples arguments. In fact, I think they should be factored more than taxes because they do not have the same fluctuations that taxes do.

These are commodities that can have the surplus sold on the free market to the highest bidder or used as an asset to lure business to a region. Something most states do not have.

[ILOVEDNY]

"Without NYC and its metro, the "state" of "Upstate" would be a financial basket case. "Upstate" would be fighting Mississippi and New Mexico for "poorest state in the Union".

"The NYC metro not only has the most people, it also pays the most taxes into state coffers by far. bills."

That's an old canard spread around by Downstate types.

Empires always say their colonies are a burden to them.

But they hate to part with them, that's for sure.

http://archives.buffalorising.com/st...ubsidize_upsta

Do what I did Jim.
The numbers (last being 2007) are right there on the NY state taxation website.
Get out your calculater and run the numbers yourself.
My above percentages are right on target.

Your link you provide admits that downstate generates more revenue then it consumes.

Then you try to discredit it by making unproven allegations about Fed $$ to wall street, payoffs etc.

And you even include a few outright misstatements.

"Seventh, Downstate gets much of its water and cheap power from Upstate. Why isn’t that factored in?"
NYC gets it's water from reservoirs in Westchester, Putnam and Dutchess county. Hardly upstate.
We here in Rockland get our water from underground wells.
The two large reservoirs we have feed NJ.

Con Edison is NYC's electric company.
They own Indian point 1 and 2 as well as 16 generating plants in NYC.
While I'm sure they have bought some electric from upstate suppliers.
I'm sure the extra revenue for upstate suppliers was welcomed.

"Eighth, a huge portion of Upstate is parkland off limits to economic development. These lands such as the Adirondacks are a veritable playground for Downstaters"

Guess your still living in the early 1900's
When NYC's wealthy built the Great camps.
I own a summer place in the Adirondacks.
Which generates property taxes for Hamilton county.
From my experience.
You'll find more Canadians vacationing there then downstaters.
Rich downstaters prefer the oppulant surroundings of Marthas vineyard over the rustic Adirondacks(That's why I love it).

"Ninth, many wealthy Downstaters own land in Upstate, so they are subsidizing themselves."

Like you said.
The Adirondacks are closed to development.
How am I subsidizing myself?
I payed for a septic to be dug.
I payed for my own well.
And I pay property and school taxes on this house.

"Tenth, you Downstaters get much of your food from Upstate so again, you are subsidizing yourselves."

Except for milk I cannot fathom what other food is largly from upstate.
Cause if we depended on upstate produce we would starve from November to May.
Right now most of the stores produce is from Jersey and western states.
The local tomatoes are just about ready as well as the corn.
Didn't know that upstate was such a large producer of meat and fish products. Now let me go pour a glass of fresh squeezed upstate OJ.


BTW.
What exactly is a "downstate type"?