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  1. #1
    Member ForestBird's Avatar
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    Question Buffalo's Waterfront ?

    Okay, new subject but old topic - WHAT to do with Buffalo's waterfont?

    It is not a pleasant place. Deep water, high waves, brutal winds. This is not Erie PA's Presque Isle, with miles of sand bars and beaches and trees. It isn't Crystal Beach, either. When Frederick Law Olmsted proposed that South Park should extend down to The Lake, he was told: "We hate the Lake", in essence. A scary, nasty place.


    Bless the hardy souls who can afford to weather the storms in the Marina condos, but what about the rest of the abandoned shore, used for 140 years or so for industry ? Trees and wind turbines? More docks for wealthy owners of boats? What?

  2. #2
    Member Achbek1's Avatar
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    The funny thing is I'm only 31 but back when I was a preteen I remember my parents taking me "downtown to the waterfront" a lot. We used to go to The Hatch and watch the boats. Sometimes we'd cruise around the Naval Servicemen's Park. (The mannequins of the sailors on the USS Sulivan used to totally creep me out!) I remember there being a lot of activity there in the summertime. That was the 80's, when did it really start to decline?

    Is The Hatch even still around?

    But I think that the waterfront should be built up with dining and entertainment establishments, NOT A CASINO OR A BASS PRO!

    I think people would be happy with a place to get some onion rings and hear a cover band while they watch the boats, nothing too fancy.
    I'm just here to make people laugh. And to confuse people. Oh, and to irritate people.

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    Member SolarEclipse's Avatar
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    The Hatch is still around, I usually go once or twice a year. The marina is a nice place to walk around on a summer evening.

    What's wrong with building more marinas for boat owners? Not all boat owners are rich - a lot are just average people that like fishing or the recreation of boating. Boaters spend a lot of money on gas, and restaurants/bars with docking access are always busy.

    Waterfront access is always a draw, regardless of whether it's in Florida, Maine, or even Buffalo.

  4. #4
    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achbek1
    I think people would be happy with a place to get some onion rings and hear a cover band while they watch the boats, nothing too fancy.
    Hey speak for yourself!

    There are a zillion places to BBQ and watch cover bands. The waterfront should be unique and special. If it's too plain there's no reason to go.


    _

  5. #5
    Member crlachepinochet's Avatar
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    Fried food and cheap music is do-able. We need to stop thinking of the waterfront as a special magical place that we have to protect. Fact is, there's miles and miles and miles of WNY shoreline from the PA line to Lake Ontario. If something can make it down on the water, then let it come. If someone wants to come in later and build an indoor skeet shoot/cross country skiing range/water park/windmill/baby bottle museum/marina/concert venue/high-rise condo/park/money pit, then they can build it on another piece of the vast expanse or they can buy out the little fried food shack.
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  6. #6
    Member Linda_D's Avatar
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    I think that the Outer Harbor would be best served as a seasonal recreational area. Given that the area was formerly industrial sites and the significantly colder climate because of lake winds, I think that it would be foolish to plan on year-round businesses and housing here in the near future.

    At the water's edge, I'd think there should be mostly parkland with paved walkways but not totally paved, with benches as well as scattered picnicking sites with tables. More inland, I would like to see a set of bathrooms, groundskeeper/maintenance/security office/garage in one building, maybe with an observation tower similar to the one at Erie Basin. Nearby might be some electrified shelters for family reunions and picnics, perhaps with some kind of pull-down walls to provide shelter from the lake winds. I would also include a large, well-designed interactive playground (every one of these I've ever seen is simply a kid magnet!) as well as a splash pool with a sprinkler that kids (and moms and pops) can run through.

    The Pier does (maybe did is a more operative word since the NFTA refuses to give the owner a long-term lease in anticipation of immediate development) a good seasonal business with weddings, etc., and I think more businesses of the seasonal nature could fit in here, too: a marina and a boat launch plus seasonal restaurants, or better yet, street vendors with carts. Closest to Fuhrmann Blvd, I think there might be some businesses but I'm not sure what. Eventually, this area might be developed for commericial/housing but I'm really skeptical. The Outer Harbor is not a place where many pedestrians will tread between November and April, and that's what I find most distressing about all these great plans; they're not realistic for Buffalo's climate.
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    How much colder and windier is it at the outer harbor than say in Hamburg, Waterfront Village, or downtown?

    Its pretty cold in Minneapolis for a few months each year, umm, yah- Chicago too. Toronto gets pretty cold and their waterfront is highly developed. How about those ocean winds in New York City? brrrrrrr

    We all know this isn't Florida or Southern California. No, the waterfront will not be used by sunbathers year-round. There is a plan for parks and waterfront access from the Light House to almost Lackawanna, most of it is already in place. There will be people willing to live at the outer harbor. I wouldn't push for stores and restaurants however except those serving the needs of residents.

  8. #8
    Member ForestBird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestCoastPerspective
    How much colder and windier is it at the outer harbor than say in Hamburg, Waterfront Village, or downtown?

    Its pretty cold in Minneapolis for a few months each year, umm, yah- Chicago too. Toronto gets pretty cold and their waterfront is highly developed. How about those ocean winds in New York City? brrrrrrr
    Hamburg, etc - all about the same nasty blasts of wind, which is why there has never been much built. Hoak's is virtually IN the lake now, due to erosion.

    Minneapolis fronts on which stormy lake?

    Toronto's lakefront does not compare to Buffalo's - entirely different situation. "Cold" is not the same as "frostbite-making 40mph winds with waves crashing over the breakwall". Buffalo has deep and unprotected water - no beaches, no shallows, no relief from high waves and wind.

    The ocean winds in NYC are not cold; I visit every Xmas and have no problem standing on the forward deck of the Staten Island ferries!

    I'm not saying that our waterfront cannot be used, but only that the weather conditions have been generally ignored by recent plans.

  9. #9
    Member Achbek1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles
    Hey speak for yourself!

    There are a zillion places to BBQ and watch cover bands. The waterfront should be unique and special. If it's too plain there's no reason to go.


    _
    Well then if you prefer upscale, I'm not saying that EVERY PLACE has to be an "Uncle Larry's House Of Onion Rings."

    But maybe a compromise, a variety of both upscale and casual places-- make the waterfront accessible for everyone. That way both the flip-flop crowd and the topsiders crowd will be happy.



    That's part of Buffalo's dichotomy, the conflict between the "upscale" and the "downscale." It's like we're on an episode of "Frasier" sometimes.

    Personally, I could go either way. I have just as much fun chomping chili dogs while I watch an out tune garage band playing Bachman Turner Overdrive as I do sipping wine and listening to Puccini. But that's just me.
    I'm just here to make people laugh. And to confuse people. Oh, and to irritate people.

  10. #10
    Member wheresthesun's Avatar
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    The Buffalo Shuffle?

    Maybe it was Buffy who recently mentioned, "the Buffalo Shuffle?" In any case, I'd mentioned before, a long time ago, that Baltimore's Inner Harbor isn't all that different, physically, from Buffalo's waterfront. Difference is that they developed theirs, and it's thriving. Not sure why this model wouldn't work, to some extent, in Buffalo, except the obvious, "Buffalo Shuffle." Maryland's weather, not much different than ours, hasn't impeded their inner harbor progress whatsoever. It's not a complicated model.

  11. #11
    Member Linda_D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheresthesun
    Maybe it was Buffy who recently mentioned, "the Buffalo Shuffle?" In any case, I'd mentioned before, a long time ago, that Baltimore's Inner Harbor isn't all that different, physically, from Buffalo's waterfront. Difference is that they developed theirs, and it's thriving. Not sure why this model wouldn't work, to some extent, in Buffalo, except the obvious, "Buffalo Shuffle." Maryland's weather, not much different than ours, hasn't impeded their inner harbor progress whatsoever. It's not a complicated model.
    Maryland's weather is much different from Buffalo's, especially in the winter.

    First off, Maryland's weather is much more temperate than Buffalo's. Average winter highs are about 10 degrees F warmer than Buffalo's and the average winter lows are about 6 degrees warmer. Baltimore is also less windy than Buffalo. I'm not sure where Baltimore's weather station is, but Buffalo's is at the airport, a good ten miles inland from Buffalo's waterfront, and the wind is always stronger at the shore than inland.

    Moreover, Baltimore is on the western shore of Chesapeake Bay so it's protected from prevailing westerly winds off the water and from the worst of Atlantic storms by the land masses on both sides of the bay. Buffalo sits at the eastern end of Lake Erie, so it gets the prevailing westerlies off the water all year around, except in those months when the lake is frozen, unbroken by land masses.

    Apparently, Baltimore's harbor doesn't freeze and so hardy folks can use their craft all year round. The only boat that operates in Buffalo's harbor in the winter is the icebreaker, which was used over the weekend to break ice on the Buffalo River to help prevent ice jam flooding upstream.
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  12. #12
    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    Ha ha. No not that kind of upscale... just something more unique I guess.

    I'd love to see the waterfront developed like Chicago's. Long stretches of woodsy parks and open areas. Lot's of sand beaches. and a few big attractions sprinkled in like Navy Pier

    I guess our Inner Harbor will be like their Navy Pier actually.

    Because of the erosion factor, we may be on the wrong side of the lake to build big sand beaches ... but it would be nice to have a few decent beaches down there to party in the summertime. We're on a huge lake and we have no beaches!

  13. #13
    Member speaker's Avatar
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    Need more beaches! Along the lake, except we're on the wrong side and the BOULDERS that are strewn along the waterfront hurt! And they can't be cleaned out, because they come back in a different pattern every morning.
    But Woodlawn, Bennet, and more are nice beaches and should be enhanced and made available. We should have ALL beach along that stretch with park area, rest rooms, parking and a few "beachy" hot dog stands.

  14. #14
    Member sharky's Avatar
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    A few restaurants with private docks would be great on the water front.
    Granted it's not a perfect comparison, but Chautauqua lake has a few restaurants on the lake with dock access, and they all do a lot of business.
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  15. #15
    Member Linda_D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achbek1
    But maybe a compromise, a variety of both upscale and casual places-- make the waterfront accessible for everyone. That way both the flip-flop crowd and the topsiders crowd will be happy.
    I agree. That's the essence of a city ... a spectrum of high brow and low brow and everything in between. I've said this before, but it bears repeating, I think: there seems to be a trend for many city "advocates" in Buffalo to attempt to enforce their view of what's "good" on everyone else -- hence, the opposition to chains of any type on Elmwood; the view that every old building that isn't renovated into upscale housing is "deteriorating" even if it's a sound, occupied building; the dislike of more suburban-style housing in the city, etc. There needs to be more acceptance that not everybody can afford champagne, and that not everybody who can afford it, has a taste for champagne any time much less all the time.
    Your right to buy a military weapon without hindrance, delay or training cannot trump Daniel Barden’s right to see his eighth birthday. -- Jim Himes

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