Should we have so many county roads

[biker]

I believe that some of the focus on the number of county employees is misplaced.

The wrong questions are being asked. Not how much they are paid, what their benefits are or how many (the answer for some is already "way too many").

For each of the services the county provides, we need to know the drivers.

No pun intended, but the question for the costs of the Highway Dept is "why do we have so many miles of County Roads?"

Some have already posted that Erie County has more roads than some states. Why is that? What caused Erie to have that many miles of county roads? Did some unique historical conditions cause this to occur.

Understand that and perhaps a solution more fundamental than another tedious debate on one vs two man plows can be identified.

Who can help out with the history and/or why this many of miles of county roads is unique or, if not, why does it need to be so here.

[Linda_D]

For one thing, Erie County is one of the bigger counties in NYS, being about 40+ miles long and from about 20 to 30 miles wide, so it's going to have lots of county roads.

I think the reason that the county has so many roads is that county "leaders" back years ago (1920s, I think) decided that having good roads (ie, paved) between villages (or hamlets) was important and that the only way that was going to happen was to have the county rather than the towns take care of it. This made sense in 1920 when most of Erie County was rural and farming was the main rural occupation, particularly dairy farming (which requires daily pick up of milk!).

[hacktivist]

And a followup question: why should county snowplows have 2 operators, when the state itself moved to a 1-person plow years ago?

[farmall806]

The reason is because of the UNIONS They are concerned that if the county goes to one man per plowtruck, then there will be workers laid off .

farmall806

[tomac]

Originally posted by biker
I believe that some of the focus on the number of county employees is misplaced.
The wrong questions are being asked. Not how much they are paid, what their benefits are or how many (the answer for some is already "way too many").
For each of the services the county provides, we need to know the drivers.
No pun intended, but the question for the costs of the Highway Dept is "why do we have so many miles of County Roads?"
Some have already posted that Erie County has more roads than some states. Why is that? What caused Erie to have that many miles of county roads? Did some unique historical conditions cause this to occur.
Understand that and perhaps a solution more fundamental than another tedious debate on one vs two man plows can be identified.
Who can help out with the history and/or why this many of miles of county roads is unique or, if not, why does it need to be so here.

Biker, if I may, maybe I can shed some light on the reason for this condition.
Back in the period of the First World War (around 1918) Erie County had about 99 different roads in its system for a total of about two hundred miles. Of these, most were "hardpan" aka dirt and a few were brick or cobblestone.
Along about 1920, the County Engineer, George C. Diehl (in charge 1898 - 1933) had a dream (some might call it a scheme). He was going to oversee the construction of the most advanced, most profitable part of the country (with his-own-self at the helm)!
He wanted to build the region into an "International City" dedicated to business, industry and commerce. His city Running from 18-mile Creek in the south to Lake Ontario in the north and Transit Road in the east to the Welland Canal in the west (this guy was, if nothing else, ambitious!). Areas were set aside for special problems. Lackawanna would be heavy industry, steel, auto and aircraft construction, Tonawanda ship construction, Grand Island would be the airport (his idea was seaplanes - fledgling at the time!) Niagara Falls would supply power to "his" city and the Welland Canal would be his access to foreign ports.
To do this he needed good roads to bring in materials and deliver products and food. It was under his leadership that the County Highway Division built what he called the "outer ring roads", Southwestern Blvd., Transit Rd. and Sheridan Dr. He envisioned an inner ring, built many years later in the Kensington Ex'way, the Scadjacwada Ex'way, and the 190 portion of the Thruway. He decided to expand the Highway division to include more and better roads in the rest of Erie County (which he envisioned as food production for "his" International City"), so he went to the different towns and struck a bargain with his counterparts there, the various town engineers. He would take over the town roads and mold them into a cohesive County Highway System. Actually, this wasn't too hard, because in addition to being the County Engineer, he was also the town engineer for each and every town in the County (appointed positions back then), as well as the City Engineer (appointed), and Engineer on both Indian Reservations (Federal appointment).
He also owned a concrete batching plant causing all the bridges at this time to be built of concrete (coincidence?). In addition to the bridges, he expanded the construction of concrete sidewalks, concrete streetlights and a thick base-course of concrete under those cobblestone streets. Of course, all sewer pipe was concrete as well.
Anyway, from 1920 to 1930, the amount of miles in the County Road System went from about 200 miles to the current 1150+ miles. This size is larger than any other County system in the Country, and larger than many states. At one time (when equipment was more primitive) there were about 500 maintenance personnel in the five districts total. Added to this was about fifty to seventy engineering staff working out of the downtown office, first in the Ellicott Square Building, then at 134 W. Eagle moving to 45 Church and then to the Rath Building.
Now, back in the day, the towns were all too eager to get rid of as much as 80% of their roads to the County; their tax dollar would go a LOT farther without that albatross to maintain.
Diehl figured that "his" City would generate more than enough revenue to pay for road maintenance and besides, he realized that good roads would be necessary to make his plan work.
Unfortunately (for him), in 1933 he came under closer scrutiny, probably because of the Depression, and major portions of his scheme came to light.
Remember that this was also the time of the "Kingfish", Huey Long in Louisiana, and I reckon that there were other area "bosses" around the Country. Dield was our own.
Anyway George was "found out" and was allowed to leave rather than face trial for gross public malfeasance. Maybe he had "the goods" on many of the other politicians?
Bottom line - he left and the County got stuck with the bill, a huge highway system, the likes of which don't exist anywhere else in the country, maybe in the world.

Now some here have said we should dump this system.
Here's the honest question. How?
How do you tell the towns to take back these roads and bridges (some in pretty bad condition) and not go bankrupt overnight?
What Solomon is out there that can pull that off?

[tomac]

Originally posted by Linda_D
For one thing, Erie County is one of the bigger counties in NYS, being about 40+ miles long and from about 20 to 30 miles wide, so it's going to have lots of county roads.

I think the reason that the county has so many roads is that county "leaders" back years ago (1920s, I think) decided that having good roads (ie, paved) between villages (or hamlets) was important and that the only way that was going to happen was to have the county rather than the towns take care of it. This made sense in 1920 when most of Erie County was rural and farming was the main rural occupation, particularly dairy farming (which requires daily pick up of milk!).

The Counties in the Adirondaks are much larger than Erie County and don't have a quarter of our road ways. It had nothing to do with size.

[tomac]

Originally posted by hacktivist

And a followup question: why should county snowplows have 2 operators, when the state itself moved to a 1-person plow years ago?

Originally posted by farmall806
The reason is because of the UNIONS They are concerned that if the county goes to one man per plowtruck, then there will be workers laid off.

The bulk of those one-man plows are used on the Thruway and the large rural roads like Rtes. 20, 20A, 5 and 78.
Works great there, but do you want a one-man operation going down Colvin Avenue with lots of traffic and one guy trying to drive and operate the wing at the same time?
The same holds to (altough to a lesser extent) on the smaller rural roads. Picture a one-man operation going down Omphalious Road or some of the other gems in the County System.

[Curmudgeon]

Other parts of the country have their own "Omphalious Roads" or some other road or whatever. WNY is about the only place I've ever seen with "two man plows".

You'll stop at nothing to throw up some "plausible" explanation of why things are done so differently here than in other places.

I've got news for you: WNY really isn't that unique. Please stop citing "special circumstances" every time somebody points out the obvious.

[biker]

Tomac:

I was hoping this topic would bring out the best in you, and it has.

I purposefully did not bring up or answer the 1 vs 2 man stuff: that would have been like setting duckies up on the pond for you to pick off.

Thanks very much for that background; I never heard of this Diehl character. I do know that Lackawanna was part of Buffalo, given to Mr. Scranton to entice him to put his steel plant here.

Let me go re read your opus again and I'll be back.

[tomac]

Originally posted by biker
Tomac:

I was hoping this topic would bring out the best in you, and it has.

I purposefully did not bring up or answer the 1 vs 2 man stuff: that would have been like setting duckies up on the pond for you to pick off.

Thanks very much for that background; I never heard of this Diehl character. I do know that Lackawanna was part of Buffalo, given to Mr. Scranton to entice him to put his steel plant here.

Let me go re read your opus again and I'll be back.

Actually, according to the oldest maps of the area that I have seen, the area currently known as "Lackawanna" was in West Seneca.......

[tomac]

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
Other parts of the country have their own "Omphalious Roads" or some other road or whatever. WNY is about the only place I've ever seen with "two man plows".
You'll stop at nothing to throw up some "plausible" explanation of why things are done so differently here than in other places.
I've got news for you: WNY really isn't that unique. Please stop citing "special circumstances" every time somebody points out the obvious.

Actually, it is - you live here.

Now if you'd like to remove that "unique" status, I won't complain.....

[Vlasic]

here's an interesting essay I found on the subject

http://millercenter.virginia.edu/pub...ein_chs1_2.pdf

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
Other parts of the country have their own "Omphalious Roads" or some other road or whatever. WNY is about the only place I've ever seen with "two man plows".

You'll stop at nothing to throw up some "plausible" explanation of why things are done so differently here than in other places.

I've got news for you: WNY really isn't that unique. Please stop citing "special circumstances" every time somebody points out the obvious.

Actually, WNY is unique for its combination of snowfall, wind, and population density. There isn't another area in the country with the population density of Erie County (910 persons per square mile) that gets as much snow and wind as often and with as much unpredicatability. This is particularly true of the southern half of Erie County, but we all know that if the wind comes in just right, it will bury the city or the Northtowns or the airport. Snowfall rates of 2 or 3 inches per hour aren't uncommon in lake effect snow bands in this area. The relatively flat, open terrain of much of Erie County's current and former agricultural areas creates numerous roads prone to white-outs and drifting. Buffalo is one of the largest cities in the US with an average snowfall of about 100 inches per year. Probably only Syracuse is in the same snowfall/population category.

[biker]

Originally posted by tomac
Actually, according to the oldest maps of the area that I have seen, the area currently known as "Lackawanna" was in West Seneca.......

Heard it from a college professor who's written a couple of books on Buffalo. Didn't verify it, though.

I'm willing to learn from anyone, even pinko professors.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by tomac
The Counties in the Adirondaks are much larger than Erie County and don't have a quarter of our road ways. It had nothing to do with size.

Well, that might be because they don't even have a quarter of Erie County's population.

County Size Population Pop/Density*
Erie 1226.9 950,265 910.03
Essex 1916.5 38,851 21.62
Hamilton 1807.8 5,379 3.13
St Lawrence 2821.5 111,931 41.68
* per sq mile of land

This wasn't any different 80 years ago, either.

Do you have any references for George Diehl? It doesn't have to be an on-line source. A book or article will do.

I have seen an historical map from around 1920 that envisioned an "Electric City" that stretched from present day Buffalo to Niagara Falls and even to Youngstown (I think) with a huge population. It's online, but I don't know if I can find it again. Diehl might not have been the only person "thinking big" in those days.