If the town file bankrupsty why does it make a difference?

[WNYresident]

Let us say to break all the contracts that were negotiated without the property owners best interest in mind a town went bankrupt. Other than raising the cost to borrow money which for the most part you really don't have to do to the extent some towns do where it the harm otherwise?

[Frank Broughton]

Let us say to break all the contracts that were negotiated without the property owners best interest in mind a town went bankrupt. Other than raising the cost to borrow money which for the most part you really don't have to do to the extent some towns do where it the harm otherwise?

Harm to vendors they owe money.

[4248]

Keep an eye on Detroit!

Your Town could file bankruptcy - if qualified by a judges ruling. Then all bets are off and creditors will usually settle for reduced payment. They will line up to again do business knowing its not the end of that government or its spending.

If Detroit is successful - they will cut every tax funded workers contracts. That will open the door to even cutting promised benefits to retired employees as well as future hires.

Nothing is off the table - not saying its going to happen locally - keep a eye on Detroit. Their big hope now is a Obailout - like the banks and motor industry got.

None of which addresses future affects of shrinking economies or tax payers inability to keep pace with rising property taxes.

[WNYresident]

Harm to vendors they owe money.

Not if you plan it with the vendors mind

[dtwarren]

First of all what you are describing is a bad faith filing. You cannot seek bankruptcy relief to benefit one class of creditors over another in the manner you describe. The bankruptcy code classifies creditor by secured, non-secured, etc. and every creditor in a particular classification is treated the same.

Second, I do no believe any municipality in the State of New York can meet the insolvency test required to file bankruptcy which is:

Section 101(32)(C) of the Bankruptcy Code defines insolvency for a

municipality as having a financial condition such that the municipality is:

(i) generally not paying its debts as they become due
unless such debts are the subject of a bona fide dispute;
or
(ii) unable to pay its debts as they become due.

[WNYresident]

First of all what you are describing is a bad faith filing. You cannot seek bankruptcy relief to benefit one class of creditors over another in the manner you describe. The bankruptcy code classifies creditor by secured, non-secured, etc. and every creditor in a particular classification is treated the same.

Second, I do no believe any municipality in the State of New York can meet the insolvency test required to file bankruptcy which is:

Bad faith contract negotiation versus bad faith filing. What is the problem DT?

(ii) unable to pay its debts as they become due.

Do a future projection of the debt/cost of some of the labor contracts as they are becoming "due".

This is while small geographical areas are losing population. Basically property owners who pay taxes are fleeing. Ask Charley who sits on our town board about the vacant property issues cheektowaga is facing. 1000's have fled over the last 10 years. He even have other towns calling him for advice about that growing issue.

Life is too short to work your butt off so others don't have to.

DT you have to agree, monopolies are bad. You should not give a group of people a monopoly of services in a small geographical area. Nogods can tap dance all he wants but that is what it is. Specially when you have basically never ending labor contracts.

[dtwarren]

Just because you do not like the labor contracts do not mean they were the result of bad faith negotiating. If the negotiators for the town thought they were they can file an IP with PERB.

Cheektowaga nor any town in Erie County, that I am aware of, are even close to their constitutional debt limit. The City of Buffalo came close hence they label most things covered by property taxes in other towns of the county as fees, but they were also placed under a control board.

The abandoned properties are certainly an issue. This issue is only going to grow as we approach the tail end of the baby boomers as well as if we fail to reform the foreclosure process.

That while it is apparent in your opinion that you believe labor is a monopoly that is not the case. While it is true the employer does not pick which union to represent its employees the employees do. The employees who are represented by the union can change union represents them by voting to decertify the current one and certify a new one.

[Save Us]

Unfortunately bankruptcy has come to mean that you become insolvent when you can no longer BORROW enough to meet your obligations.

It is a losing proposition. In the end you cannot escape mathematics.

[dtwarren]

Actually it does not mean that and that is not what I stated. The municpalities can raise the revenue to pay their debts without borrowing. Borrowing has become the way municpalities do it because it is more politically expedient than raising taxes, but in the long run they are just putting off what should be done today for tommorrow.

[WNYresident]

DT
Just because you do not like the labor contracts do not mean they were the result of bad faith negotiating. If the negotiators for the town thought they were they can file an IP with PERB.

Bad faith in the sense the property owners cost burden over time were not considered into the contracts. The "negotiators" in some cases are on the receiving end of the contracts they negotiate. In some cases the "negotiators" family members are on the receiving end of what is being negotiated.

[dtwarren]

Here is the legal basis: most labor activity is protected by the statutory exemption from the anti-trust laws in the Clayton Act, 15 U.S.C. § 17, 29 U.S.C. § 52 and the Norris-LaGuardia Act, 29 U.S.C. §§ 104-115. Those Acts "declare that labor unions are not combinations or conspiracies in restraint of trade, and exempt certain specific union activities, including secondary picketing and boycotts, from the operation of the antitrust laws", Connell Construction Company, Inc. v. Plumbers and Steamfitters Local Union No. 100, 421 U.S. 616 at 621-22. Congress intended that the Clayton Act would protect certain labor activities from anti-trust attack. When the Clayton Act was interpreted restrictively by the courts, Congress reaffirmed in the Norris-LaGuardia Act its earlier intent to exempt most labor activity from the anti-trust laws. United States v. Hutcheson, 312 U.S. 219, 236, 61 S. Ct. 463, 468, 85 L. Ed. 788 (1941).

[dtwarren]

Bad faith in the sense the property owners cost burden over time were not considered into the contracts. The "negotiators" in some cases are on the receiving end of the contracts they negotiate. In some cases the "negotiators" family members are on the receiving end of what is being negotiated.

I see what you are saying and I do agree that the elected and non-union represented officials not have their compensation tied to what is contained in a CBA. However, the relief for that is electing strong leaders who also believe that and who will take steps at the organizational meetings of the town to break that connection.

[WNYresident]

You might be able to break the "friends/family" connection but you need to break the badly negotiated contracts.

[dtwarren]

I believe that it can only come from subsequent contract negotiations after you break the tie in compensation from the employers negotiaters with the benefits contained in the very CBA they are negotiating.

[4248]

With all due respect: DT wrote, "Second, I do no believe any municipality in the State of New York can meet the insolvency test required to file bankruptcy which is:"

I believe the working mans translation would be - Until the taxpaying home owner cannot afford a increase in their taxes - municipalities will avoid bankruptcy.

All too often - as DT pointed out - there is laws and rules one can use to try and rectify a situation. Yet, all to often that option turns your efforts into a pissing match with a over whelming system. The same system that wrote the rules - the same system that wrote the laws. That's not a fair and balanced situation.

Those who govern have for far too many years quietly passed rules/codes/laws that in the long run protect the system.

Individuals are seen as tax payers.