Genoobie and Alan....

[WNYresident]

In fact, less than 1400' away from the Aloma D. Johnson school is Futures Academy so the neighborhood already has a school. The point being that yes indeed the neighborhood has sufficient student population to support a school.

What is taught at the Aloma D. Johnson school versus Futures Academy?

And what is wrong with how it was done when I went to school? Public School #43. I don't think it was name anything other than #43.

I went here

http://www.buffaloah.com/a/benzngr/161/index.html

The school building is unique in its application of the Renaissance Revival style as seen in the size and scale of the structure, the corbel arcaded attic story, use of the ground level floor, stylized window trim and two story porch. Public School No. 43 was organized in 1831 with the construction of a one room building erected by Joseph Churchyard, owner of the land. The small wooden building with steeple was used until 1925. In 1885 a two story brick building was opened. The ten room structure was built by the residents of the Churchyard farms. An annex was opened at East Lovejoy Avenue and Ideal Street in 1898. The present structure was erected to accommodate the 600 German-American families living in the district. The addition was opened September, 1925. The building contains 49 classrooms, a kindergarten, double gymnasium, music, cooking and sewing rooms, a cafeteria and an auditorium that seats 1,000. Enrollment in 1926 totaled 1,662 students.

I see there were 1,662 students in 1926. I wonder what the employee ratio to students was back then.

I noticed this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Lo...falo,_New_York

PS #43 is the primary school in the East Lovejoy area and many living in the area attend. It has architectural and significant history. Started in 1831 by Joseph Churchyard, the man who owned the land, the school created an annex on East Lovejoy and Benzinger Streets. This school is the current school #43. Built to accommodate 600 German children living in the area, the school had 49 classrooms, two gymnasiums, a cafeteria, and other features. In 1926, the amount of students attending was 1,662. Recently, the school underwent a 56 million dollar construction project that created another building connected to the old one, in place of the old parking lot. PS 43 is one of the Buffalo Public Schools.

Another school that was located in Lovejoy before its close in 2009, is St. Agnes. It did not have enough money to pay for the school and thus closed down. It was in Lovejoy for over 100 years. It opened in the 1800s.

Notable people

Carl Paladino, developer, Republican gubernatorial candidate in the 2010 New York State election, defeated by Andrew Cuomo. Originally from Lovejoy, he later relocated to South Buffalo.

[Genoobie]

You did not answer my question. I gave two scenarios and would like to know which one you think would benefit the children the most...The money either goes to the school employees or the children.. No one else. If I wanted Carl involved in this adventure I would have included him.

BUT you did bring up a point in my favor.....

From the two scenarios I mentioned... 1) give it out as bonuses or 2) give it directly to the children, 2 is a job creator.

Tutors could be hired that didn't have work before hand, businesses would grow selling educational items the kids may need, sales people might make some extra commission and pay down their debt, some people might be hired as security guards, the businesses that sell gardening supplies might get some unexpected orders, the little company that makes Flutophones might get an order and Chuck Norris might get some part time work. Didn't even think of the job creation angle.

Now I would like you to tell me which of the two scenarios would benefit the children the most?

Maybe you didn't read what I wrote. I have gone on record multiple times saying that I would have given my 3 years of step freeze and no wage increase for 10 years in exchange for an equivalent amount of classroom equipment. (Amounts to about $5K per year because of the wage freeze.)

But I will maintain that if $200M were found the scenario that would be touted on the MB would be, don't give it to anyone except some "job creators". Again, take the 10 wealthiest residents and have them draw straws. Put this in the hands of one wealthy resident and they could make jobs. Right? For the other intelligent business owners who are more efficient (because they are able to succeed with much less capital), screw them because they weren't born wealthy or into a wealthy business. If you are wealthy, you are entitled to every penny, and in fact, you deserve to be even wealthier because you come from a lineage of intelligent people that worked hard to make wealth and so that must imply you have better breeding and are superior.

The people providing gardening tools and who are working retail would not be manufacturing anything so the "net producer" would be the CEO of a company that produced these goods in China. Therefore the $200M isn't really coming from anywhere. It would increase our foreign trade deficit as these service jobs that you mention aren't really "net production". If you tutor, you are not producing anything. If you work a cash register, you are not producing anything (and in fact, those people should have been laid off years ago because of automated checkout lines and tutors aren't necessary because people should just read more books if they don't understand something and of course the internet is a great resource that is offered at nearly every public library). Processing orders is not production. They are simply a medium to the manufacturer who haven't figured out yet how to get their goods to market without retail.

In fact, a company that has, Tesla motors, is receiving HUGE opposition from the auto retailers because they don't have dealerships and are direct sellers. Selling directly is a dirty word...What happened to your free market economics here? Wealthy businesses owners manipulated government to benefit them. I guess that's capitalism for you. Too bad Tesla didn't pay off the right people to do business.

Wealthy business people prohibit competition

Actually, both scenario 1 and 2 are job creators because the employees would go out and spend the bonus. Those bonuses would be spent on various things and thus you'd have an equal amount of "job creation".

[Genoobie]

As far as Futures and Aloma D. Johnson being so close. See this is what competition brings. Eventually we could have like 7 or 8 different schools like a Timmy Hortons on every corner. Eventually competition would bring the best goods to market so to speak. Now that charter schools have been in operation for almost 10 years, we see tremendous increases in student performance on standardized tests. The charter schools in Buffalo have made the national news with their whopping successes and taking poor kids and enthusiastic (i.e. non-union) teachers and mixing them together for...WOW...what an incredible difference.

See the teachers there are paid less which makes them work harder because they LOVE what they do, unlike their union thug counterparts in the public schools who obviously hate what they do (because their test scores are...the same). But maybe someone could help point out how the charters in Buffalo are out-performing their public, union-run, counterparts?

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

As far as Futures and Aloma D. Johnson being so close. See this is what competition brings. Eventually we could have like 7 or 8 different schools like a Timmy Hortons on every corner. Eventually competition would bring the best goods to market so to speak. Now that charter schools have been in operation for almost 10 years, we see tremendous increases in student performance on standardized tests. The charter schools in Buffalo have made the national news with their whopping successes and taking poor kids and enthusiastic (i.e. non-union) teachers and mixing them together for...WOW...what an incredible difference.

See the teachers there are paid less which makes them work harder because they LOVE what they do, unlike their union thug counterparts in the public schools who obviously hate what they do (because their test scores are...the same). But maybe someone could help point out how the charters in Buffalo are out-performing their public, union-run, counterparts?

So why did the school move? Are you suggesting Carl had something to do with it? The move happened BEFORE he was elected to the school board. It also should be noted his son is not running the development company.

So what is your theory on how this went down? Did he bribe St. John Fruit Belt Community Development Corporation and Daemen College. Were there a bunch of free steak dinners and trips to the strip club for the Principal and PTA President? Did they have a secret handshake and meet in an empty parking lot?


You seem to want to pain the picture that Carl is to blame here. So I am assuming you have information on how this went down. Care to share?

[WNYresident]

Maybe you didn't read what I wrote. I have gone on record multiple times saying that I would have given my 3 years of step freeze and no wage increase for 10 years in exchange for an equivalent amount of classroom equipment. (Amounts to about $5K per year because of the wage freeze.)

But I will maintain that if $200M were found the scenario that would be touted on the MB would be, don't give it to anyone except some "job creators". Again, take the 10 wealthiest residents and have them draw straws. Put this in the hands of one wealthy resident and they could make jobs. Right? For the other intelligent business owners who are more efficient (because they are able to succeed with much less capital), screw them because they weren't born wealthy or into a wealthy business. If you are wealthy, you are entitled to every penny, and in fact, you deserve to be even wealthier because you come from a lineage of intelligent people that worked hard to make wealth and so that must imply you have better breeding and are superior.

The people providing gardening tools and who are working retail would not be manufacturing anything so the "net producer" would be the CEO of a company that produced these goods in China. Therefore the $200M isn't really coming from anywhere. It would increase our foreign trade deficit as these service jobs that you mention aren't really "net production". If you tutor, you are not producing anything. If you work a cash register, you are not producing anything (and in fact, those people should have been laid off years ago because of automated checkout lines and tutors aren't necessary because people should just read more books if they don't understand something and of course the internet is a great resource that is offered at nearly every public library). Processing orders is not production. They are simply a medium to the manufacturer who haven't figured out yet how to get their goods to market without retail.

In fact, a company that has, Tesla motors, is receiving HUGE opposition from the auto retailers because they don't have dealerships and are direct sellers. Selling directly is a dirty word...What happened to your free market economics here? Wealthy businesses owners manipulated government to benefit them. I guess that's capitalism for you. Too bad Tesla didn't pay off the right people to do business.

Wealthy business people prohibit competition

Actually, both scenario 1 and 2 are job creators because the employees would go out and spend the bonus. Those bonuses would be spent on various things and thus you'd have an equal amount of "job creation".

You still didn't answer my question. I don't believe you will either. You created a third scenario.


I asked what would benefit the children more from these two scenarios I made up. I didn't asked about economic impact of the money being spent by the teachers versus the children. Or that you were free to add another scenario to what to do with the money. IE: give it to one of the wealthiest people.

Multiple Choice.

Which choice would benefit the child's education the most.

A) Each school employee receives a bonus of about $40000

B) Each child directly receives $5882 that the parent uses specifically for the child's educational needs.


There is a specific reason I asked.

And to reply to other items you posted:

The people providing gardening tools and who are working retail would not be manufacturing anything so the "net producer" would be the CEO of a company that produced these goods in China.

Not unless they were made in the states. Or at the Foundry in Buffalo. Maybe some kids want to learn to weld and make "Made in Buffalo" hand tools or garden gnomes.

If you tutor, you are not producing anything.

Yes you most certainly are. You are producing a smarter kid. Just as teachers produce smarter kids. But that doesn't mean we should pay government employees $120K, $140k, $180k a year to do so.

If you work a cash register, you are not producing anything

They most certainly are. They create service calls when their cash register breaks from all the sales they are ringing through. They might have children and each dollar they make could go into their child's education. I purposely go through the checkout lines that have cashiers before going through an automated lane. I knows tops has the automated lanes but I like Wegmans much better. I don't think they have automated yet. Get this months "Menu" magazine from Wegmans. Coupons and some tasty looking recipes this month.

In fact, a company that has, Tesla motors, is receiving HUGE opposition from the auto retailers because they don't have dealerships and are direct sellers. Selling directly is a dirty word...What happened to your free market economics here? Wealthy businesses owners manipulated government to benefit them. I guess that's capitalism for you. Too bad Tesla didn't pay off the right people to do business.

That really has nothing to do with the original question I asked.. Well it might. A group of kids might want to have an after school program to make an electric car to compete against other schools and crush them. 100 parents could pool their $5882 and have a budget of $588,200. They could hire two teachers at $80k a year and have $428,200 for parts/equipment.

[Genoobie]

You still didn't answer my question. I don't believe you will either. You created a third scenario.


I asked what would benefit the children more from these two scenarios I made up. I didn't asked about economic impact of the money being spent by the teachers versus the children. Or that you were free to add another scenario to what to do with the money. IE: give it to one of the wealthiest people.

Multiple Choice.

Which choice would benefit the child's education the most.

A) Each school employee receives a bonus of about $40000

B) Each child directly receives $5882 that the parent uses specifically for the child's educational needs.

The honest answer would be to give each teacher an approved card to spend on classroom supplies / educational equipment. Parents aren't necessarily going to spend the money responsibly. They may, for instance, buy an expensive product, sell it and keep the cash. What would benefit the children the most? Modeling the attempts to answer questions that have no solutions and neither scenario necessarily requires traditional schools or lots of money. In fact, I have often maintained that the residency requirement should be re-instated and that public school budgets halved with the rest of the money going to projects to develop and beautify Buffalo. Of course, some well-heeled businessperson (i.e. not a net producer), will step in and surely pocket significant amounts of capital for themselves (see: Ciminelli $1B reconstruction of Buffalo Public Schools).

Not unless they were made in the states. Or at the Foundry in Buffalo. Maybe some kids want to learn to weld and make "Made in Buffalo" hand tools or garden gnomes.

Then people would claim those businesses are getting an unfair subsidy / taxbreak / etc.

[QUOTE}
Yes you most certainly are. You are producing a smarter kid. Just as teachers produce smarter kids. But that doesn't mean we should pay government employees $120K, $140k, $180k a year to do so.
[/QUOTE]
Smoke and mirrors, there's no way to "measure" that product (except by test scores). Teachers don't necessarily produce smarter kids. In fact, yet another study comes out showing that under the present educational paradigms teachers have but a small impact. If you were to change how "success" is measured than you might have a case.

Regarding cashiers

They most certainly are. They create service calls when their cash register breaks from all the sales they are ringing through. They might have children and each dollar they make could go into their child's education. I purposely go through the checkout lines that have cashiers before going through an automated lane. I knows tops has the automated lanes but I like Wegmans much better. I don't think they have automated yet. Get this months "Menu" magazine from Wegmans. Coupons and some tasty looking recipes this month.

Then you are subscribing to an inefficient business model. How un-capitalistic of you. Why not automate all the lanes (The stores probably get some tax credit for employing people that's why and we are thus indirectly subsidizing antiquated ways of doing business. We should demand an end to this kind of practice.)

That really has nothing to do with the original question I asked.. Well it might. A group of kids might want to have an after school program to make an electric car to compete against other schools and crush them. 100 parents could pool their $5882 and have a budget of $588,200. They could hire two teachers at $80k a year and have $428,200 for parts/equipment.

Actually, it does because it illustrates that only the wealthiest businesses can persuade the market forces (including government) to bring to bear business in their favor. It's just one more force to contend with to become wealthy in the US. It helps ensure that social mobility is difficult and really preserving class (status quo) is the name of the game. The failing schools mantra is simply one to bolster property values and subsequently real-estate values to make surrounding areas "exclusive" and inaccesible to lower income residents.

Maybe sending kids from Buffalo to Clarence would help them the most. Take the bottom 10% of the senior class from Buffalo (along with their funding) and stick them in a high school in Clarence and let's see how they fare. Since you are expecting the teachers to work miracles and any grade level.

[Genoobie]

I don't care about the scores for this conversation. I don't care about performance for this conversation. You're just throwing up random items and not answering my question. Blowing smoke...because you either have no idea what you're talking about or know you're wrong.


You talk about enrollment numbers but are unable to show where those kids live. Again, the point of a neighborhood school is to have the school located near where the kids live. Did it occur to you at any point that maybe the school looked at where the students lived and decided to move to a central location or a better location to suite THE MOST KIDS POSSIBLE?

Why would you shut down a school when a move is possible? 'As far as you know' means very little to me. Until you show numbers that say otherwise, the only thing that ties this school to the Fruit Belt is the name.

So I went to Aloma D. Johnson charter school today after work and I had a talk with the Assistant Principal. I told her I have school aged children and I am near their new location and I'd like to find out more about the school, especially since they will be moving soon. I asked a few questions about if that would be disruptive, etc., and I made some more small talk about the school's mission, blah blah blah. Finally, I asked about the neighborhood characteristic, to which she replied that it would be sad that they were leaving that location because they serve so many students in this neighborhood. I said, "Oh, are there a lot of students from this neighborhood, because of the "Fruit Belt Charter" in the title, and she said "Oh, about 90% of the kids are from the area." And then we had some more small talk about their art program because they had lillies on the wall in the style of Monet and I left. She was very kind and was eager for me to fill out an application before I left, but I said I would drop it off.

Gee whiz...whoda thunk it??

[Genoobie]

You seem to want to pain the picture that Carl is to blame here. So I am assuming you have information on how this went down. Care to share?

No, the picture I am painting is that Carl is a politician interested in himself and his interests first. If the kids benefit, then great. If he can fill an empty building and bill the district for transportation costs, then fine. People want to believe that Carl is riding in as the white knight on a fiery steed ready to do battle with bureaucrats when in fact he's just the wolf in sheep's clothing.

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

So I went to Aloma D. Johnson charter school today after work and I had a talk with the Assistant Principal. I told her I have school aged children and I am near their new location and I'd like to find out more about the school, especially since they will be moving soon. I asked a few questions about if that would be disruptive, etc., and I made some more small talk about the school's mission, blah blah blah. Finally, I asked about the neighborhood characteristic, to which she replied that it would be sad that they were leaving that location because they serve so many students in this neighborhood. I said, "Oh, are there a lot of students from this neighborhood, because of the "Fruit Belt Charter" in the title, and she said "Oh, about 90% of the kids are from the area." And then we had some more small talk about their art program because they had lillies on the wall in the style of Monet and I left. She was very kind and was eager for me to fill out an application before I left, but I said I would drop it off.

Gee whiz...whoda thunk it??

I wonder why they moved then? The move is a two sided deal after all. If the AP is sad about it and 90% of the kids are from the area, why the move?

Is the lease cheaper? Is the building better and thus lower costs? Very curious....

[Genoobie]

I wonder why they moved then? The move is a two sided deal after all. If the AP is sad about it and 90% of the kids are from the area, why the move?

Is the lease cheaper? Is the building better and thus lower costs? Very curious....

Most likely that the rents are going up near the "medical corridor". Paladino has an empty building that he'll likely charge less for, even if it a longer bus trip. So most likely because of cost. Either way, it still abrogates the notion of running a neighborhood school system. Those kids could likely attend Futures Academy, which IS a neighborhood school.