No garage sale ‘no parking signs’ for HOA’s/private roads

[Lee Chowaniec]

At the last Lancaster town board meeting, there was discussion held regarding changing the town ordinance on ‘no parking’ signs distribution and whether the town would consider charging a fee to residents requesting them or a deposit that would be returned if all the signs were returned; if not a charge of $5 per sign not returned.

It was declared at that meeting that a resolution would be on tonight’s agenda that would announce that a public hearing would be held on the matter that would take place at the June 3rd meeting. No such resolution appeared on the agenda.

Writer addresses board

Chowaniec: Our community is having a garage sale in June. What is the status on the matter? Is no change to take place?

Supervisor Dino Fudoli: Asked Town Attorney John Dudziak to look into whether the town was prepared to hold a public hearing and have it announced at the next meeting (by resolution).

Council member Donna Stempniak: I am not sure we are exactly settled on the matter yet; whether there should be a fee or a deposit, what constitutes a neighborhood sale, whether or not… I don’t know. I am kind up up in the air. I would like to see a public hearing.

Chowaniec: Exactly. In my opinion, I don’t believe the public will favor a fee but would understand the need to pay for signs not returned. We heard at the last meeting that there are subdivisions that request and get 125 -250 signs. Our subdivision is nowhere near that size and would request much less. The garage sale is to take place in June and the board is yet to act.

Stempniak: Do the police control it as where you live is on private property (a townhouse community with an HOA)?

Chowaniec: No.

Stempniak: That (ordinance) would not affect you anyway.

Chowaniec: But we have received ‘no parking’ signs in the past. Our streets are only 21 foot in width and we have no sidewalks. If cars are allowed to park on both sides that not only makes it an unsafe issue for the residents and their children, but hampers emergency services if something warrants response.

Supervisor Fudoli: What was the rule in the past?

Chowaniec: We received the signs.

Fudoli: You got them from us and put them up?

Chowaniec: Yes.

Stempniak: Why do you need signs for a private road? Why doesn’t your HOA make up the signs?

Chowaniec: And I am simply asking where this change is coming from that our community can no longer get the signs from the town? The individual who called the town for the signs from our neighborhood was told we were not eligible to receive them because we had private streets. She wants to know what’s changed when we received them in the past. In fact, did the individual who received them in the past receive them as a favor from a town official that acted in violation of code?

Fudoli: That’s a good question. It is a gray area and that is why we need a public hearing. We didn’t settle on anything yet because unfortunately it is not cut and dry whether a fee or deposit will be requested and where the cut off will be. There were 200 signs that were delivered to my neighborhood this past weekend. There are only one or two areas that are problem areas in our subdivision and where 20 -30 signs would have been necessary, but one individual said no, we need to put them out across the whole neighborhood. We need to determine what is a substantial number that have to be distributed and returned as well.

Chowaniec: Again, I have never been involved in a garage sale, but the individual organizing the one in my neighborhood wants to know why she is being denied the signs. Yes, we do have private roads but did receive the signs in the past. If you are going to take the position that we have private roads and the police have no control that is only partially true as they patrol our neighborhood and respond to emergency calls as they should as we are taxpayers.

If you don’t want to give us the ‘no parking’ signs because we have private roads, have a public hearing, make that determination and we will make up our own signs.

Fudoli: Right, but remember one thing, that when we set a public hearing it has to be on something specific. In other words we just can’t set a public hearing so we can sit here and talk. It has to be very specific about the law and avoid the past. We need to make that decision as a board and determine the number to be distributed, what charge, etc. We could not hold a public hearing until the board comes to an agreement whether there should be a deposit, where we set the limits and can we put them in a private subdivision.

Chowaniec: I understand all that. My question is what’s changed on private subdivisions not being eligible for signs when we received them in the past. Who made that happen?

Fudoli: If it’s wrong we have to make sure we correct it.

Chief Gerald Gill: The rational is that this is a private road that would be using public funds. That is the only reason I refused the individual in your neighborhood from getting signs.

Fudoli: Right, and I don’t think it’s fair for us to say that in the past it was done so we will continue doing it. The practice was wrong.

Chowaniec: Then I have a problem understanding why as taxpayers who pay for and receive police protection we are being denied same services as others because we have private roads – roads that we pay for repair and snow removal, and where the town does not. We are not entitled to get anything for or tax dollars?

Fudoli: I think it’s a question whether we can go on private property and put signs up.

Chowaniec: We are not expecting you to put the signs up and remove them. We will pick them up and be responsible for collecting them and pay you $5 for every sign not returned to wherever you tell us to return them.

Town Attorney John Dudziak: That is not the spirit of what we are trying to do here.

Fudoli: I think it’s a liability issue if the signs are put up improperly. If something happens… there is a process for putting them up. It creates another issue if town employees come unto your private property. Unfortunately, we do need to know the answers to these issues before we hold a public hearing.

Stempniak: This is another door you have opened as to whether public funds should be used to put signs out for private homeowner associations.

Chowaniec; I don’t understand where you are coming from. We are not costing you a nickel. We are taxpayers, are willing to pick up the signs and return them wherever you want and will pay for the costs of any signs not returned. You are not expected to do anything else.

Fudoli: I think what Ms. Stempniak is saying is that yes you are taxpayers, and the purpose in your case for putting up the signs is concern for public safety and emergency service access, but that there is a liability issue if the signs are not put up properly. We need to err on the side of caution.

Chowaniec: Hold a public hearing, make a determination so that I can help explain to the individual organizing the semi-annual garage sale why HOA’s are being denied sign receipt.

Stempniak: I don’t think it’s going to be solved by the time you have a garage sale. The next meeting we would have to set the public hearing, have the public hearing on June 17th and I don’t know if we would make a decision by that time.

Council member Mark Aquino: In that sense, it is my opinion we honor what we have done in the past.

[Irish Rose]

: YARD SALES





[HISTORY: Adopted by the Town Board of the Town of Lancaster 8-21-2000. Amendments noted where applicable.]



§ 49-1 Intent.

§ 49-2 Application for permit.

§ 49-3 Permit fee.

§ 49-4 Limitation.

§ 49-5 Posting of signs.

§ 49-6 Location.

§ 49-1 Intent.


This ordinance is designed to provide a mechanism to obtain further information regarding the date(s) and location(s) for yard sales, garage sales, estate sales, auctions or other sales occurring on residential property within the Town of Lancaster in order that the Town may put in place the appropriate traffic control and public safety measures the Town Police Department deems advisable.


§ 49-2 Application for permit.


All parties desiring to hold a sale of personal property of any kind whatsoever where the public is invited onto a residential site shall obtain a permit from the Town Clerk's office of the Town of Lancaster at least 48 hours prior to the sale date(s).


§ 49-3 Permit fee.


There shall be no permit fee for the issuance of such permit.


§ 49-4 Limitation.


A sale at any one location shall be limited to:
A. No more than two times in a twelve-month period and at least 30 days apart; and

B. No more than three consecutive days.


§ 49-5 Posting of signs.


All signs posted advertising such a sale must be temporary in nature and must be removed immediately after the sale ends. Failure to remove signs in a timely fashion may be reason to deny a future permit.


§ 49-6 Location.


The permit application shall identify the owner of property, the address of the property, the dates and times of the sale. In the event that more than one property is involved in the sale, such as in a neighborhood or block sale, there shall be the need for only one permit to be issued identifying all of the addresses involved in the sale.

What violation of the Town Code? Per Chapter 49 above of the Lancaster Town Code, where does it state that HOA/private properties are exempt from borrowing the No Parking signs? The Code does state that these postings are for residential property which a HOA/private community is and homeowners are Town of Lancaster taxpayers as well. I should think that the forethought regarding the safety of the residential location should be the priority.

[shortstuff]

Although the code narrative posted by Irish Rose is not detailed enough, I believe safety is the most important factor. Also I had a question, what do other towns do?

[Lee Chowaniec]

Although the code narrative posted by Irish Rose is not detailed enough, I believe safety is the most important factor. Also I had a question, what do other towns do?

If you interpret the code narrative posted by Irish Rose as vague, that is sad because the individual posted the code in its entirety.

This nonsense about the town not spending public funds for private roads is just that, nonsense. The roads in HOA's are maintained by the HOA. We are talking here about getting signs that help provide safe conditions for neighborhood residents and emergency vehicle access.

There is nothing in the code language to disallow HOA's or any town resident to have an equal opportunity to apply for a garage sale permit and to get signs. In fact, the individual in our neighborhood received a permit fr the sale. Why was she given a permit only to be denied signs later?

[gorja]

This is nonsense. Lee's HOA members pay full property taxes, unlike other HOAs who fall under the condo law. Chief Gill never explained what has changed since your HOA's last garage sale event. it was a private road then and a private road now

[Irish Rose]

Besides which Lancaster homeowner tax dollars paid for the signs and HOA homeowners pay taxes ... therefore HOA dollars paid for the No Parking signs but are not entitled to borrow them for the sake of safety like everyone else? Really?Council Member Aquino has it right ... do the right thing and honor the use as has been previously been done.

[WNYresident]

All parties desiring to hold a sale of personal property of any kind whatsoever where the public is invited onto a residential site shall obtain a permit from the Town Clerk's office of the Town of Lancaster at least 48 hours prior to the sale date(s).

So a 1 family garage needs to get a permit?

49-4 Limitation.


A sale at any one location shall be limited to:
A. No more than two times in a twelve-month period and at least 30 days apart; and

B. No more than three consecutive days.


§ 49-5 Posting of signs.

Why 30 days apart if the limit is two? What is the difference of someone has a garage sale 2 weekends in a row versus 3 weeks between the 2 garage sales? Either way it is still two weekends,

Only part that makes sense is limiting it to a few days. This way you don't have a summer long sale in front of someone's home.

There shall be no permit fee for the issuance of such permit.

Why not at least have the people who have garage sales cover the cost of the process?

All signs posted advertising such a sale must be temporary in nature and must be removed immediately after the sale ends. Failure to remove signs in a timely fashion may be reason to deny a future permit.

I got a better idea.

This how I would write it if I was supervisor

All signs posted advertising such a sale must be temporary in nature and must be removed within 12 hours immediately after the sale ends. Failure to remove signs in a timely fashion will result in a $50 dollar fine

... Or what ever the charge is for littering. You can be loose with the 12 hours... an hour or two won't make a difference.

What violation of the Town Code? Per Chapter 49 above of the Lancaster Town Code, where does it state that HOA/private properties are exempt from borrowing the No Parking signs? The Code does state that these postings are for residential property which a HOA/private community is and homeowners are Town of Lancaster taxpayers as well. I should think that the forethought regarding the safety of the residential location should be the priority.

Why bother at all? Did something happen at a street sale that triggered someone to think this up?

[WNYresident]

Besides which Lancaster homeowner tax dollars paid for the signs and HOA homeowners pay taxes ... therefore HOA dollars paid for the No Parking signs but are not entitled to borrow them for the sake of safety like everyone else? Really?Council Member Aquino has it right ... do the right thing and honor the use as has been previously been done.

Safety reasons? What happen at a garage sale that triggered this need for no parking signs?

[WNYresident]

Let see how Schamburg handles this:

Village of Schaumburg – Progress Through Thoughtful Planning

Garage Sale Permits are Mandatory
A permit is required to conduct a garage/occasional sale and must be displayed on the premises at the sale.

Garage sale permits can be obtained online
or at the Village of Schaumburg, Community Development Department, 101 Schaumburg Court, Monday through Friday, between 8am and 6pm, or by calling 847.923.4420.

http://www.ci.schaumburg.il.us/Permi...arageSale.aspx

[gorja]

Let see how Schamburg handles this:

Village of Schaumburg – Progress Through Thoughtful Planning


http://www.ci.schaumburg.il.us/Permi...arageSale.aspx

Here's Overland Park, Kansas -

Can I request temporary No Parking signs?
No. The city will not install temporary No Parking signs on streets adjacent to or near garage sales. It will be the responsibility of the person, or persons, holding the garage sale to ensure that guests do not park in a manner where they will impede traffic.

http://www.opkansas.org/wp-content/u...e.pdf?&redir=1

[Irish Rose]

There are 2 distinct SIGNAGE issues here ...

1. Signs posted noting the WHO ... WHAT ... WHEN ... WHERE ... details of the event. These signs are the sole responsibility of the owners of the event to create/distribute and then retrieve.

2. NO PARKING signs that are Town taxpayer dollar paid for and provided for use during the event as a proactive way to avert a safety debaucle ... cars blocking roadway access that might prohibit emergency vehicle right-of-way or other vehicles trying to drive down the roadway. I'm sure many of us have had the unfortunate experience of trying to get through a roadway where two vehicles are standing adjacent to one another making drive through difficult.

This is a practice that the Town of Lancaster has had for quite some time. The inference was brought up by Lee that because the current individual in charge of his property's garage sale was denied the use of the NO PARKING signs even though a permit has been approved is questionable ... seeing as another individual from a previous event on the same property did secure the use of the NO PARKING signs ... and his question is: was that individual and the Town of Lancaster just doing this person a favor or in violation of the Code? Well, as posted verbatim from the Town Code, there is no verbiage that prohibits a HOA/private community from using the NO PARKING signs and therefore no violation of the Code or favor previously provided either.

Once again, Council Member Aquino supports the HOA/private community use of the NO PARKING signs as there is no egregious error in doing so.

[gorja]

There are 2 distinct SIGNAGE issues here ...

1. Signs posted noting the WHO ... WHAT ... WHEN ... WHERE ... details of the event. These signs are the sole responsibility of the owners of the event to create/distribute and then retrieve.

2. NO PARKING signs that are Town taxpayer dollar paid for and provided for use during the event as a proactive way to avert a safety debaucle ... cars blocking roadway access that might prohibit emergency vehicle right-of-way or other vehicles trying to drive down the roadway. I'm sure many of us have had the unfortunate experience of trying to get through a roadway where two vehicles are standing adjacent to one another making drive through difficult.

This is a practice that the Town of Lancaster has had for quite some time. The inference was brought up by Lee that because the current individual in charge of his property's garage sale was denied the use of the NO PARKING signs even though a permit has been approved is questionable ... seeing as another individual from a previous event on the same property did secure the use of the NO PARKING signs ... and his question is: was that individual and the Town of Lancaster just doing this person a favor or in violation of the Code? Well, as posted verbatim from the Town Code, there is no verbiage that prohibits a HOA/private community from using the NO PARKING signs and therefore no violation of the Code or favor previously provided either.

Once again, Council Member Aquino supports the HOA/private community use of the NO PARKING signs as there is no egregious error in doing so.

From the town code section that you posted, I see NO mention (verbiage) of "NO PARKING" signs at all.

[Irish Rose]

Exactly my point, gorja ... it's not a part of the Code ... that is why I cited it as a Town practice... and recognized the fact that the signs are paid for with taxpayer dollars ... dollars a taxpaying HOA/private community homeowner pays into ... and why they have as much right to borrow these signs as the next guy.

I also wanted to be sure and quick to point out ... how can anyone be accused of having a favor done for them by the Town because they used the signs in the past or that this is a violation of the Code when the NO PARKING signs are clearly not a part of the Code.

Some folks need to be careful of the defamatory insinuations/accusations they spew as it may come back to bite them!

[Lee Chowaniec]

Exactly my point, gorja ... it's not a part of the Code ... that is why I cited it as a Town practice... and recognized the fact that the signs are paid for with taxpayer dollars ... dollars a taxpaying HOA/private community homeowner pays into ... and why they have as much right to borrow these signs as the next guy.

I also wanted to be sure and quick to point out ... how can anyone be accused of having a favor done for them by the Town because they used the signs in the past or that this is a violation of the Code when the NO PARKING signs are clearly not a part of the Code.

Some folks need to be careful of the defamatory insinuations/accusations they spew as it may come back to bite them!

It appears quite clear that your last sentence applies to me. If that is so, then I have to say your reading skills are poor and you are sensitive to the issue for personal reasons.

I simply asked when the town would hold a public hearing on the ‘no parking’ signs matter they themselves said was coming as our community was going to hold a garage sale late in June. The individual organizing the sale in our community had already applied for and received a permit. When she requested ‘no parking’ signs from the highway department and then the police department she was told that private communities were not eligible to receive such signs.

She approached me on the matter and I told her about the work session and that perhaps that was the reason for answer she received. We made nothing of it.
It was council member Donna Stempniak who first brought up that communities with private roads are not eligible for sign consideration. Then the rest of the BS followed about sign placement, liability, that the HOA should make its own signs, etc.

That is when I asked, “What changed? Why did our community receive them before? Has there been a policy change or a personal favor done by a town official that made that happen?”

That’s a fair question, especially considering Police Chief Gill personally telling me that his directive is not to use public funds for private use unless directed to do so from another authority.

The rest of the stuff about what’s in what code is meaningless to me when the focal point here is that taxpayers living in a private community who pay to maintain their roads, who are willing to pick up the signs and return them, are willing to pay for any signs not returned, have community liability coverage, want to use the signs to promote resident safety and emergency vehicle access are being denied sign use.

Now you tell me where the defamatory insinuations/accusations are?

[Irish Rose]

Lee, you know exactly where you were going with this and your finger pointing ... need I elaborate? The mere vocalizing at the Town Board meeting ... a personal favor ... or in your post above ... a town official who acted in violation of the Code ... speaks for itself as far as accusatory verbiage. Personal attack by yourself? SPOT ON! And if such a directive as Chief Gill is citing exists, why doesn't the public know about it? And furthermore, HOA taxpaying homeowners contribute to Town public fund coffers which makes those signs as much theirs to use as any other homeowner. The end ...