Buffalo streets are dead

[biker]

Gabe:

Didn't you start this same thread two/three months ago?

And I can turn your premise around. When I was a student at UB (in the 1870s), I went to what was billed as a "NYC party". What that turned out to be was 300 people in a house, music blaring, people packed so tight you could barely move.

I've been in NY plenty of times. I much prefer the way Hertel and Elmwood operate. If you want to drive along it, fine. If you want to walk, you're not lost in a sea of humanity. You can actually see what's in the windows and stop if you want.

At "worst" you're comparing Buffalo to some of the fewer older cities that have been able to regenerate their population bases (SF, NYC and Bos) with Buffalo.

Try comparing us to Lansing MI, Paducah Kentucky or Duluth MN.

[Shovel ready]

Originally posted by biker
And I can turn your premise around. When I was a student at UB (in the 1870s), I went to what was billed as a "NYC party". What that turned out to be was 300 people in a house, music blaring, people packed so tight you could barely move.

Bad. Example. I've been to many BUFFALO parties where it was the same situation.

Originally posted by biker
I've been in NY plenty of times. I much prefer the way Hertel and Elmwood operate. If you want to drive along it, fine. If you want to walk, you're not lost in a sea of humanity. You can actually see what's in the windows and stop if you want.

Have you ever been to any of the 4 other boroughs besides manhattan??

NYC is much more than manhattan, contrary to what most visitors think. There are many great neighborhoods in Brooklyn and Queens that are NOT packed to the gills with people. There are certainly a well enough populated street presence to make it safe at all hours though. Lots of people, but not too many to hamper stopping/window shopping ect.

The point of this post is to show that there are a few neighborhoods in Buffalo that certainly have the density to support vibrant street life and delve into why these streets often look like ghost towns.

[300miles]

I understand what Gabe is getting at. I love walking down elmwood... window shopping, people watching... it's a very urban feeling with lots of people. BUT THEN ... I go visit friends in Chicago for the weekend. When I come back and walk down elmwood, suddenly it feels empty by comparison. going downtown is much worse.

The neighborhoods around elmwood are fully populated, so it's not just that we need more housing (which IS the case downtown) But also we need more 'everyday' shops in walking distance. Somebody living near elmwood can walk to a bar or jewelry store but many of the everyday things like a Supermarket, hardware store, or big clothing stores are still miles away requiring a car.

People won't be out walking everywhere unless those everyday stores are also just around the corner.

[Shovel ready]

Originally posted by 300miles
I understand what Gabe is getting at. I love walking down elmwood... window shopping, people watching... it's a very urban feeling with lots of people. BUT THEN ... I go visit friends in Chicago for the weekend. When I come back and walk down elmwood, suddenly it feels empty by comparison. going downtown is much worse.

The neighborhoods around elmwood are fully populated, so it's not just that we need more housing (which IS the case downtown) But also we need more 'everyday' shops in walking distance. Somebody living near elmwood can walk to a bar or jewelry store but many of the everyday things like a Supermarket, hardware store, or big clothing stores are still miles away requiring a car.

People won't be out walking everywhere unless those everyday stores are also just around the corner.

Exactly! You hit the nail right on the head talking about 'everyday' shops.
I look at neighborhood retail in 2 categories.

1. Functional Retail-- gorcery store, pharmacy, beautyshop/hair salon, eateries, hardware store, florist, video rental store,bakery, deli, convenience store, laundromat, appliance shops, ect.

These stores are there for the everyday needs for neighborhood residents within walking distance. THESE stores are what populate commercial streets.

Often in vibrant urban neighborhoods these store are run either by people from the neighborhood or immigrants from there or other parts of the city. In Buffalo,poorer citizen or immigrants need to realize there is a huge opportunity for them if they set up ordinary everyday needs stores in neighborhoods where there is already money.

2. Lifestyle/Recreational Retail
clothing boutiques, antique stores, jewlers, art gallerys, bars & restaurants, (athough those could fall into category 1 as well) night clubs, head shops, gourmet food emporiums, music/record stores, bookstores, tattoo parlors, ect.

Elmwood, Allen, and even Hetel has many stores belonging in this category. But the balance is too far toward this, meaning many shoppers arrive from other areas for very specific needs. There are not enough stores supporting everday needs to draw a significant street presence during the busier hours of the day.

If Buffalo wants to gather more urban momentum, functional businesses are needed in areas that can support them. More people on the street will give these parts of the city an even more urban feel and attract more people seeking this sort of lifestyle. For people already in these neighborhoods they will have opportunities to rely much less on automobiles for everything.

[WestCoastPerspective]

Two reasons for the lack of street life (relatively speaking) in Buffalo: Density and the auto-centric nature of living here. Most households have cars here, especially households of means. In NY- you have upper class households without cars- they need to walk, bike, take transit, cab, sedan, or limo everwhere else. Stores locate where the people are, and in NY these aren't just gift shops and restaurants like much of Elmwood seems to be. You have more people lining one or two blocks of 3rd Avenue in NYC than 60 square blocks along Elmwood. Everything is relative. How many buildings along Elmwood have more than three stories? Few. And thats the charm of the street, locally owned shops catering to the neighborhood but also drawing shoppers/diners from the region.

Grant/Ferry isn't a neighborhood of means, but the business district is fairly busy since many residents do not own cars. But in order to get more life on the streets- the population and density needs to increase throughout the city.

[crlachepinochet]

Methinks part of the problem is that we want to rely on Elmwood as our 'downtown'. WCP and Gabe, you're both right; the Elmwood neighborhood is full and the density is nowhere near what it is in the big cities. Elmwood is what it is... a funky boutique/restaurant strip. Even attempting to work it into something else would require a major facelift.

Perhaps we will see busy street life if downtown keeps developing into neighborhoods. It's not only the people that live in a neighborhood that are seen on the streets, but also the ones that are just stopping by. The downtown buildings can support a much higher density than Elmwood, but that capacity will be balanced with office space.

[WestCoastPerspective]

In theory- if the downtown residential population continues to increase- retail should be drawn back into downtown. The problem now is that stores struggle to survive serving the lunch time crowd from the offices. Heck, even the fast food joints can't survive! And there's no destination retail to draw from the 'burbs or the city's neighborhoods. That might change with Bass Pro- but those retailers would likely want to be as close to the foot of Main as possible, not in the Main Place Mall area. The city really needs to put an RFP out for the Webster Block- the most valuable block in Buffalo right now if the casino goes to DL&W and Bass Pro signs their agreement.

The good news is we're already seeing a couple new retailers opening to serve the downtown loft crowd: Washington Market and the new salon in the Stokes Seed Bldg. in the 700 block of Main.

[Shovel ready]

Originally posted by WestCoastPerspective
Stores locate where the people are, and in NY these aren't just gift shops and restaurants like much of Elmwood seems to be. You have more people lining one or two blocks of 3rd Avenue in NYC than 60 square blocks along Elmwood. Everything is relative. How many buildings along Elmwood have more than three stories?

I was living in a part of Brooklyn where buildings and houses were typically 3-4 stories, very rarely exceeding 5 or 6. Most houses were cut into 2-3 units and a few even single family. There was plenty of foot traffic on the main commerical streets.

I think the difference is really culture and additude instead of density per-se. Neighborhoods like Elmwood and Allentown certainly have the density to support vibrant business districts, but people of means are used to using their cars to do their functional shopping. This is not to say that functional stores can't thrive on streets like Elmwood. I think if people living within a few blocks can take a quick walk grab some fruit, a prescription or a bouquet of flowers they will take up the oppotunity. Hopefully the new co-op will encourage people to walk to grab some quality groceries and other things. I think once attitudes start to change, neigborhoods will become busier.

What surprises me the most is the area from Allen st, up through bryant straddling elmwood and delware and linwood has tons of apartment buildings, a pretty high density for buffalo, and very few stores to walk to. Now theres an untapped market if you ask me...

Grant/Ferry isn't a neighborhood of means, but the business district is fairly busy since many residents do not own cars. But in order to get more life on the streets- the population and density needs to increase throughout the city.

Whenever i've driven around there i've noticed there are usually plenty of people walking around. Very urban for Buffalo. The Broadway-Fillmore area used to be like that only even busier.

[Shovel ready]

Originally posted by WestCoastPerspective
In theory- if the downtown residential population continues to increase- retail should be drawn back into downtown. The problem now is that stores struggle to survive serving the lunch time crowd from the offices. Heck, even the fast food joints can't survive! And there's no destination retail to draw from the 'burbs or the city's neighborhoods. That might change with Bass Pro- but those retailers would likely want to be as close to the foot of Main as possible, not in the Main Place Mall area. The city really needs to put an RFP out for the Webster Block- the most valuable block in Buffalo right now if the casino goes to DL&W and Bass Pro signs their agreement.

The good news is we're already seeing a couple new retailers opening to serve the downtown loft crowd: Washington Market and the new salon in the Stokes Seed Bldg. in the 700 block of Main.

The webster block is that parking island between scott, perry, main, and washington, right?

if i'm correct, hopefully it won't be a parking island much longer.

[Shovel ready]

Originally posted by crlachepinochet
WCP and Gabe, you're both right; the Elmwood neighborhood is full and the density is nowhere near what it is in the big cities.

You would be surpised how many of those big victorian houses are cut up into 4-5 units each. There is plenty of residential density on streets like ashland, norwood, lexington, bryant, summer, ect.

My threshold of when an area becomes "urban" is when it's a real pain to find a parking spot. Anyone who lives on one of those streets can probably tell days worth of stories about all the parking tickets they have acquired over the years.

[crlachepinochet]

My friend lives in a big old house that has 5 units and a storefront. Sure, the floor's a little slanted, but I like to think it helps me balance when I'm drunk. If Latina's and the new Co-op do well, then I'm sure we'll see more investment like that in the area... maybe even in other small-scale stores in other parts of the city.

Speaking of the other parts of the city, now there's some areas that could use increased density! Think about the fact that we have less than half the people that we used to in the city. Now consider that the Elmwood/Parkside area is pretty full, and that there are probably more people there nowadays with so many old houses cut up into apartments. What does this mean for how empty the rest of the city is?

The suburban model in reverse:
1. Attract people back to the city through a combination of downtown lofts and marketing the city's low-cost housing.

2. Pump money from the swollen tax rolls into city schools to restore art, music and performance.

3. Cheap housing, improved schools, local parks, etc. attract families back to the city.

4. The migrating people support increasingly larger-scale retail, and eventually jobs follow the people.