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Thread: Subsidies for the Buffalo Bills

  1. #1
    Member The Stig's Avatar
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    Subsidies for the Buffalo Bills

    Good lord, this is insane.

    http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/552787.html

    Erie County taxpayers will set a record for the Buffalo Bills in the 2009 season. Local taxpayer support for the team will average more than $900,000 for each game played in Western New York.

    It’s largely because the Bills now play a preseason and a regular season home game in Toronto rather than in Orchard Park’s Ralph Wilson Stadium.

    This corner of New York must make do with eight chances each year, no longer 10, to bask in the team’s full economic might. But the taxpayer allowance for “game-day expenses” and for “operating expenses” to run Ralph Wilson Stadium will, nonetheless, tick upward again with a price-index adjustment.

    This merging of events — more money for the Bills with fewer home games played here — will trigger the first $900,000-a-game season. The 2008 season just missed.

    Here’s the math. Erie County will:

    • Set aside $4.2 million for operating and game-day expenses this year. It was $3.9 million last year.

    • Continue to pay for stadium upgrades: $2.9 million for this year’s improvements.

    • Again provide the Sheriff’s Office detail for game-day security, in addition to the private security firms the Bills hire. Using last year as a guide, the county will pay the deputies about $240,000 this year.

    Add it up: $7.35 million. For the eight games to be played in Orchard Park, that equates to about $920,000 a game from Erie County taxpayers — for a team that last reached the playoffs in 1999, the second season under the team’s current lease.

    The lease expires after the 2012 season. Assuming the Bills and county leaders start talking in 2011, they’ll negotiate with County

    Executive Chris Collins. Collins says the Bills generate plenty of benefit for Buffalo and Erie County. That they will take $900,000 a game from the hometown taxpayers doesn’t faze him.

    “When it comes to quality of life, we have parks, we have culturals, and the Bills fit into what I will call that quality of life,” Collins said. “Given the total size of our county budget, and what we do, I could put together an argument that the one cultural institution that we support that has all but 100 percent impact throughout the community is the Bills.

    “Not everyone goes to the zoo,” he said. “Not everybody goes to Chestnut Ridge Park, and so forth. Pretty much the whole community supports the Bills.”

    Assuming Collins and the Bills organization strike an agreement in 2011 — Collins says no such discussions are going on now — the pact would be put before the County Legislature that voters will select this November.

    “Buffalo is a sports town,” said one lawmaker, Democrat Thomas J. Mazur of Cheektowaga. He agrees the Bills give Western New York an identity, a rallying point and adrenaline for the economy. But he said the next lease should address the fact that home games are being played elsewhere by being “more generous to the taxpayer, and less generous to the Bills.”

    Is the lease truly generous?

    Jeffrey C. Littmann, the Bills chief financial officer, says the Bills incur more stadium-related expenses than the government reimburses.

    “Inflation has been 2 or 3 percent — unless you have to buy something. Most of the stuff we have to buy has gone up a ton,” he said, mentioning insurance and utilities in particular.

    The Bills paid $5.5 million in stadium expenses for the most recently concluded lease year, which ended July 31, before the 2008 season. The largest single cost was the $1.7 million for utilities — gas, electricity and water.

    More than $1 million was spent on stadium salaries and more than $1 million on “general maintenance” — plumbing repairs, trash disposal, window cleaning, pest control, but also for miscellaneous needs such as bottled water, soft drinks and office supplies.

    The Bills also presented auto and travel expenses for certain staff — usually security staff traveling to industry conferences, Littmann said. And the team presented $11,000 for “meals and entertainment.”

    But the lease allowed government reimbursement for $2.45 million of the Bills total stadium operating expenses, or less than half of the organization’s costs.

    For “game-day expenses,” which generally involve game-day security, the cost of ticket takers, ushers, cleaning and snow removal, the team laid out $2.3 million. The government reimbursed $1.38 million.

    Again, that was for the 2007 season, when the Bills played 10 home games at Ralph Wilson Stadium, two in the preseason and eight in the regular season.

    The Bills will not present their breakdown for the 2008 season, when the team played two games in Toronto, until later this year. Littmann says the final list will show game-day expenses receding for the Toronto factor. But he said the team’s expenses will still exceed what the county is willing to reimburse.

    It was Littmann who, in October 2007, called on then- County Executive Joel A. Giambra to ask that he let the Bills play two of their home games in Toronto, where some business leaders were offering to host the team. The Bills could then expand their fan base and “mitigate the small-market handicap we face in today’s NFL,” Littmann wrote in a follow-up letter.

    The Bills’ stadium lease had been signed in 1998 by Giambra’s predecessor, Dennis T. Gorski. The agreement assumed the Bills would play all of their home games in the county-owned stadium but let the team play home games elsewhere with county permission. Giambra in late 2007 quickly let them do so for the 2008 season, without trying to change any other terms.

    Gorski had negotiated the contract as he headed into an election year. When completed, it was considered both an extravagance and a triumph for Erie County. While the deal committed a fortune in taxpayer money, some $125 million through its life, the county didn’t have to build a new stadium, as some other cities were doing for their NFL franchises.

    The full Legislature — whose members are invited by the Bills to a home game each year — ratified the pact in 1998. In doing so, lawmakers committed millions of public dollars to keep a 1970s-era stadium up to date.

    Lawmakers also let the Bills keep “all stadium revenue.” In other words, while Erie County once made money from the concerts and other events staged there, the Bills could from then on keep all stadium income.

    A prime example of the windfall arrived on Jan. 1, 2008. The Bills collected the National Hockey League’s rental fee, reportedly $250,000, for that day’s “Winter Classic” hockey game in Ralph Wilson Stadium.

  2. #2
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    Is that legal? The county LEG passes this and they get to go to one free game a year? Sounds like a little quid pro quo!

  3. #3
    Member BorderBob's Avatar
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    $900,000? Not for nothing, but isn't that like one or two bucks per Erie County taxpayer?

    b.b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BorderBob View Post
    $900,000? Not for nothing, but isn't that like one or two bucks per Erie County taxpayer?

    b.b.
    It's just less than $1 per person but since most of the people in Erie County don't pay taxes! With a quick little bit of math, 900K is about .5% of the erie county budget!

  5. #5
    Member Mr. Lackawanna's Avatar
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    No more payments

    The County subsidy to the buffalo Bills must end. If this means the Bills will leave so be it. We the Taxpayers can't afford to pay this ransom to keep the Bills here. When Mr. Wilson dies the Bills will be gone anyway.
    Russia didn't make me vote for Trump, Hillary did.

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    Member DR_GONZO's Avatar
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    Taxpayer funded handout to the Ills most definitely should stop. On top of losing revenue via two games going to Toronto yet we will have to hand out more taxpayer funding? This cancer that has taken hold of the state reaches all the way down to county government! Tax revolt, folks!!!! Tax revolt!

  7. #7
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougles View Post
    It's just less than $1 per person but since most of the people in Erie County don't pay taxes! With a quick little bit of math, 900K is about .5% of the erie county budget!
    That's per game not for the whole season.

    Executive Chris Collins. Collins says the Bills generate plenty of benefit for Buffalo and Erie County. That they will take $900,000 a game from the hometown taxpayers doesn’t faze him.

    “When it comes to quality of life, we have parks, we have culturals, and the Bills fit into what I will call that quality of life,” Collins said. “Given the total size of our county budget, and what we do, I could put together an argument that the one cultural institution that we support that has all but 100 percent impact throughout the community is the Bills.

    “Not everyone goes to the zoo,” he said. “Not everybody goes to Chestnut Ridge Park, and so forth. Pretty much the whole community supports the Bills.”
    That's a false statement. I know a lot of people who don't really give a **** about the Bills or football.

    There are 80,000 seats. Lets say 80,000 are bills fans. 80,000 / 920,000 people in erie county = 8.6% of the community supports the bills. 80,000 X 8 games = 640,000 WNY in attendance over the 1 year season. But really many are the SAME people going to each game. 80,000 people support the bills tops.

    How many people visited the zoo last year? Anyone know?

    I'm only using the zoo as an example because it was brought up to me how zoo's in general are visited quite a bit.

    I found data for 2006. 391,700 people in attendance. Not too shabby. So even if people went to the zoo twice a year that 195,000 different people versus 60,000 - 80,000 people. 195,000 is about 21.1% of Erie County. That is over 2 TIMES the support the Bills get. So will the Zoo get 2 times the "community support in money" than the bills get to operate their "BUSINESS" in OP?

    I also believe there is more "job creation" and trickle down effect from the zoo versus 8 sport games. How many "real full time" employees does the buffalo bills have? Anyone working at the stadium during game days only works 8 days of the year versus the zoo at 365 days a year. I bet there are far far more "external" people working with the zoo compared to the Buffalo Bills. Just look at the jobs the zoo provides for delivery services, food services and poop removal services far more days than the Bills do. The jobs created around the zoo are 365 days a year, not 8 games with front office people.

    I do understand there is the media side of the profit the bills create for the 3 media companies in Buffalo. Unfortunately money leaves Erie County when dealing with them. YES they employee some people in Erie county but the "profit" leaves our community. Net loss to the community versus something that pulls money into the community. Net gain of money. Like a local company that manufactures something and ships it out pulling money back here.

    If it's about 2 bucks a game X 8 games? That's $16 bucks. I think a lot of family's would rather have $16 bucks in their pocket versus football in OP. But again people who would never visit the zoo would want their money not given either. I'm just looking at it as what is our return on investment. You have a house hold with 8 people in it that is a $128 night party. $16 X 8 people = one house hold. 2 parents, 4 kids, and 2 grand parents. Or that is 4 months of $29.95 direct tv. Or a weeks of groceries... Or what ever else "you" can do with your "OWN" money versus giving it to a politician to give to someones business building costs.

    If it was me I think I'd rather see the community's money "subsidizing worse case" businesses that have a product for other areas of the USA to buy. Our community's net gain would be higher than investing in a sport that is played 8 days of the year.

    How many people are in your living arrangements? Multiply it out and figure what you could do with that money versus giving it to a business that is only open 8 days of the year. What is the payroll for the football players each year.. Just take the maintenance/upkeep cost out of that budget. They will still have money for themselves.

    I know if I had a choice I would rather use my 16 bucks to get pizza/beer with friends than give it to the Buffalo Bills so they can make more profit for their business. What would you do with your own money?

  8. #8
    Member monkeyman's Avatar
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    I could careless about the Bills or Wilson, he has been in our pockets since day one. If he wants things I say let him pay for everything or move.

  9. #9
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    What bothers me, is that Erie county, is being fiscally irresponsible here. Our county is going bankrupt and here we are forking over a million bucks to a sports team, which pays its players millions of dollars a year?!

    Let the bills pay for their own stadium.

    I have never been to a football game either. Nor do I watch football. Watching a bunch of grown men, in skin tight pants, fight over a ball, doesnt do anything for me... Now, get some ladies in skin tight pants fighting over a ball, NOW that would be entertaining!

    But realisticly, why is the tax payer paying for millionaires to play a game? Most people in Erie county make about 50K a year, before taxes, yet those on the football team bring home multiple millions. Honestly, this **** needs to stop

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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    That's per game not for the whole season.



    That's a false statement. I know a lot of people who don't really give a **** about the Bills or football.

    There are 80,000 seats. Lets say 60,000 are bills fans and the rest are the other team fans. 60,000 / 920,000 people in erie county = 6.5% of the community supports the bills. 60,000 X 8 games = 480,000 WNY in attendance over the 1 year season. But really many are the SAME people going to each game. 60,000 - 80,000 people support the bills tops.

    How many people visited the zoo last year? Anyone know? I found data for 2006. 391,700 people in attendance. Not too shabby. So even if people went to the zoo twice year that 195,000 different people versus 60,000 - 80,000 people. 195,000 is about 21.1% of Erie County. That is over 3 TIMES the support the Bills get.

    I also beleive there is more "job creation" and trickle down effect from the zoo versus 8 sport games. How many "real full time" employees does the buffalo bills employ. Anyone working at the stadium during game days only works 8 days of the year at the zoo it's 365.

    Just look at the jobs the zoo provides for delivery services, food services and poop removal services far more days than the Bills do.

    If it's about 2 bucks a game X 8 games? That's $16 bucks. I think a lot of family's would rather have $16 bucks in their pocket versus football in OP. It's really more per household though versus person.

    I know if I had a choice I would rather use my 16 bucks to get pizza/beer with friends than give it to the Buffalo Bills so they can make more profit for their business.
    What more can I add...this says it all.

  11. #11
    Member TOOLBAGS's Avatar
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    I love having a pro football team here. I buy season tickets every year. I dont want to see them leave...but if thats what has to be done, Ill continue to purchase my ticks and travel to Toronto and spend my money there instead of here on Sundays. Doesnt really bother me one way or another... Personally, if the money didnt go to the bills it would go to welfare or something stupid like that...its not like there just going to give you your $16(or whatever it comes out to). They will find some place else for your money..I say give it to something I enjoy. (Of course this is being selfish and I see your complaints if your not a football fan)
    Mark Twain:
    Surely the ass who invented the first religion ought to be the first ass damned
    Faith is believing in that which I know ain't so.

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    why not cut that $16 per person in taxes so we have lower taxes? Low taxes creates growth and economic prosperity. High taxes dampen groth and makes people leave.

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    Why doesn't the County tell the state to pay for it?

    I mean the bills have a salary of $104 million dollars a year, at 7% income tax that 7 million in revenue more than enough to cover this, not to meniton most own homes or condos in the area so they add MORE tax revenue to the state! If the county gave up their funding and the Bills left the state, that would be a chunch of change NYS would be giving up, not to mention all the sales tax earned on the Pizza, Wings and beer sold those 16 weeks!

    http://www.sportscity.com/NFL/Buffalo-Bills-Salaries

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    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genoobie View Post
    What more can I add...this says it all.
    Does it? Then tell me what does Chris Collins see that I don't. Seeing he's more successful than I am, I assume he must be far brighter than me. What does he see that I don't? I see a select few businesses making a killing off the bills while a part of our community pays for services they need.

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    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOOLBAGS View Post
    I love having a pro football team here. I buy season tickets every year. I dont want to see them leave...but if thats what has to be done, Ill continue to purchase my ticks and travel to Toronto and spend my money there instead of here on Sundays. Doesnt really bother me one way or another... Personally, if the money didnt go to the bills it would go to welfare or something stupid like that...its not like there just going to give you your $16(or whatever it comes out to). They will find some place else for your money..I say give it to something I enjoy. (Of course this is being selfish and I see your complaints if your not a football fan)
    You just don't take it to give to anyone in the first place.

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