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Thread: something to think about along with my fellow veterans

  1. #1
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    something to think about along with my fellow veterans

    Some things that should make you think a little a little bit . . .

    There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during January . . . 1+ per day.

    In the city of Detroit there were 35 murders during the month of January.
    That's only one American city--about as deadly as all of war torn Iraq.

    Some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, but probably
    did not stop to consider:

    FDR - led us into World War II. Germany had never attacked us; Japan had.
    From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.
    an average of 308 PER DAY!

    Truman - finished that war and started one in Korea though North Korea never
    attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per
    year - or an average of 50 PER DAY!

    John F. Kennedy - started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked
    us. Then Lyndon Johnson - turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
    From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year. Or an
    average of 16 PER DAY!

    Clinton - went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, yet Bosnia
    never attacked us.

    He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and
    did nothing. Osama attacked us on multiple occasions.

    In the years since terrorists attacked us President Bush liberated
    two countries, crushed the Taliban, and crippled al-Qaida. He
    put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing
    a shot. The terrorist, Sadam, who had slaughtered 300,000 fellow
    countrymen, was captured and is being held for trial by his own
    people.

    Democrats complain about how long the war is taking . . . but, it
    took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch
    Davidian compound. That was a 51-day operation.

    It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy
    the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police
    after his Oldsmobile sank at Chapaquiddick.

    It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!

    Our Military morale is high!

    The biased media hopes we are too ignorant to realize the facts.

    . . . but, wait, there's more:

    JOHN GLENN ON THE SENATE FLOOR

    Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:13

    Some people still don't understand why military personnel do what they do
    for a living. The following exchange between Senators John Glenn and
    Howard Metzenbaum is worth reviewing. Not only is it a pretty impressive
    impromptu speech; but, it's also a good example of one man's explanation
    of why men and women in the armed services do what they do for a living.

    Senator Metzenbaum to Senator Glenn: "How can you run for Senate when
    you've never held a real job?"

    Senator Glenn: "I served 23 years in the United States Marine Corps. I served through two wars. I flew 149 missions. My plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire on 12 different occasions. And, I was in the space program.

    It wasn't my checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the line. It was not a
    nine-to-five job, where I took time off to take the daily cash receipts to the bank.
    I ask you to go with me . . . as I went the other day . . . to a veteran's hospital
    and look those men, with their mangled bodies, in the eye--and tell THEM they
    didn't hold a job! You go with me to the Space Program at NASA. Go, as I have gone, to the widows and orphans of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee--
    and you look those kids in the eye and tell them that their DADS didn't hold a job.

    You go with me on Memorial Day and stand in Arlington National Cemetery,
    where I have more friends buried than I'd like to remember, and you watch
    those waving flags.

    You stand there, and think about this nation, and you tell ME that those
    people didn't have a job? I'll tell you, Howard Metzenbaum: you should be on
    your knees every day of your life thanking God that there were some men--
    SOME MEN--who held REAL jobs. And they required a dedication to a purpose,
    and a love of country and a dedication to duty, that was more important
    than life itself. And their self-sacrifice is what made this country
    possible. I HAVE held a job, Howard! What about you?"

    For those who don't remember: During W.W.II, Howard Metzenbaum was an
    attorney representing the Communist Party in the USA. Now he's a Senator!
    If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English thank
    a Veteran.subject

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    BRAVO!!!! I retired from that "real job" missing a few things but I do believe in my heart that I was doing the right thing!

    Thanks Buffalojoe!
    May you live forever.....and the last voice you hear.....MINE!

  3. #3
    Member jbinbny's Avatar
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    Wow!!

    What a terrific post! Excellent job!!!

    Metezenbaum showed just what an ignorant jerk he really was!

    Glenn cut him to the quick and it only took the TRUTH!

    The Metzenbaum attitude is alive and well in Senators like Hillary, Barbara Boxer and congressmen like Kucinich, Pilosi and others!

    THEY HAVEN'T A CLUE AS TO WHAT THEIR TALKING ABOUT!

    Bravo again on a great thread!
    Thank you New York, may I please have another!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  4. #4
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    Re: something to think about along with my fellow veterans

    Originally posted by buffalojoe
    Some things that should make you think a little a little bit . . .

    There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during January . . . 1+ per day.
    Combat-related American deaths in Iraq:

    Since war began (3/19/03): 1360
    Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) 1252
    Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 1056
    Since Handover (6/29/04): 727
    Since Election (1/31/05): 255

    Approximately 13,000 US servicemen & women wounded since war began.

    There were 40 US combat-related deaths in January 2004.

    Every website I've found lists 107 american deaths during the month of January 2005. That's 3.5 per day.

    In the city of Detroit there were 35 murders during the month of January.

    That's only one American city--about as deadly as all of war torn Iraq.
    Maybe we should devote some resources to stopping those killings. But as we can see, January 2005 (long after the cessation of major combat operations) was three times deadlier than January 2004, or Detroit.

    Some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, but probably did not stop to consider:

    FDR - led us into World War II. Germany had never attacked us; Japan had.
    And a few days after we declared war on Japan, Germany & Italy declared war on the US, since they had an alliance known as the "Axis".

    From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year. an average of 308 PER DAY!
    What's your point? That WWII wasn't worth fighting? Or the fact that the Iraq war, which is over 2 years old, hasn't yet produced so many US dead. Maybe that has something to do with the fact that WWII was a world war and not played out on the territory of one country.

    Truman - finished that war and started one in Korea though North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per year - or an average of 50 PER DAY!
    North Korea invaded South Korea. North Korea started that war. The United Nations Security Council voted to send a coalition of troops to Korea to turn the communists back. You see, back then there was a global cold war between communists & non-communists that occasionally turned "hot". Korea was one of those conflicts. If the UN hadn't come in to turn back the North Koreans (a brutal Stalinist regime), the entire Korean peninsula would now be run by Kim Jong Il. We turned them back almost to the Chinese border, but the Chinese got involved & pushed us halfway back. Truman wouldn't nuke China, so a cease fire was reached which is still in force today. The Korean war is technically still going on today.

    John F. Kennedy - started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us. Then Lyndon Johnson - turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year. Or an average of 16 PER DAY!
    And there was a very, very strong anti-war movement that developed and totally changed the direction of American political discourse.

    Clinton - went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, yet Bosnia never attacked us.
    Clinton went to war in Bosnia with NATO and UN consent. Bosnia never attacked us. The Bosnian Serbs were attacking Bosnian Croat & Muslim civilians, and the UN decided that was not a nice thing to do, and NATO decided that genocide on the European continent in the 1990s probably wasn't a positive development.

    He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama attacked us on multiple occasions.
    In the years since terrorists attacked us President Bush liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, and crippled al-Qaida. He put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot. The terrorist, Sadam, who had slaughtered 300,000 fellow countrymen, was captured and is being held for trial by his own people.
    Clinton put nuclear inspectors in North Korea, which were promptly expelled when Bush stuck them in the axis of evil. That freed up the N Koreans to complete their nuclear bombs.

    The US doesn't have nuke inspectors in Iran, the IAEA does. And the Iranians aren't cooperating.

    Libya is cooperating with its nuclear inspectors. Again - not the US, but the IAEA.

    It is true that Saddam was captured and is being held for trial. And that is a good thing. But the war in Iraq seems to have no end as long as the Sunni-Qaeda insurgency continues to explode Americans and innocent Iraqis.

    Democrats complain about how long the war is taking . . . but, it took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51-day operation.
    We have taken Iraq, but the security situation is anything but stable. And I am sickened when people defend the Branch Davidians. All they had to do was comply with a warrant. Instead, they waged war on the government. And the government defended itself. If you're served with a warrant or subpoena, are you going to shoot the marshal? Anyone who does that deserves whatever they get.

    It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chapaquiddick.
    What on Earth does Ted Kennedy have to do with anything? Must be fun for you to make sick jokes over the body of dead girls.

    For those who don't remember: During W.W.II, Howard Metzenbaum was an attorney representing the Communist Party in the USA. Now he's a Senator! If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English thank a Veteran.
    The John Glenn quote you cite didn't take place in 2004. It took place in 1974.

    Metzenbaum left the Senate in 1995.

    John Glenn left the Senate in 1999

    And John Glenn never said those words on the Senate floor, but during a primary race in Ohio when the two DEMOCRATS were battling for the nomination to become Senators.

    Finally, the 9/11 commission had this to say: "former Sudanese officials claim that Sudan offered to expel Bin Ladin to the United States....Clinton administration officials deny ever receiving such an offer. We have not found any reliable evidence to support the Sudanese claim."

    You, therefore, endorse the claims of former officials of Sudan -- a country that the U.S. Department of State has designated as a state sponsor of terrorism every year since 1993 -- rather than the testimony of Clinton administration officials and the findings of the 9-11 Commission.

    When I google "Metzenbaum defend communists", the first sites that pop up are predominantly neo-nazi, anti-semitic sites. Is that where you get your information from?
    This website makes money off of a depraved and idiotic conspiracy theory.

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    Rock on buffalopundit!!!!!!!!
    How can we change things?

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    Re: Re: something to think about along with my fellow veterans

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by buffalopundit
    [B]

    I won't bother to wate any time refuting those claims from pundit who twists the facts and plays with words. If these statements were true, as YOU say, then you are saying two wrongs make a right? Or in this case, a lot of wrongs added to a lot of wrongs, make it all right?
    There's no question that 17000 humans died, and we are living history and witnessing it up close and personal. There is no question that the Iraqui war was a total mistake and based on inaccurate and never researched information. Several other things you mention, pundit, were not wars and were not called that or even represented as such at the time.

    quote:"In the city of Detroit there were 35 murders during the month of January.

    That's only one American city--about as deadly as all of war torn Iraq.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Maybe we should devote some resources to stopping those killings. But as we can see, January 2005 (long after the cessation of major combat operations) was three times deadlier than January 2004, or Detroit.

    Maybe we should stop putting human lives in harm's way in Iraq.

    quote; "Maybe we should devote some resources to stopping those killings."

    Maybe we should do both. And maybe we should have the money to do both.

    There is no question that those are poor values and poor judgment displayed by the president, his lack of forethought about the aftermath of undertaking this war, and lack of concern, along with all of those other issues Bush is trying to force feed down the American gullet. This war will negatively effect every living being on this earth.

    Nice thing, the saving thing, is people are catching on to the creeping brutality which this war and Pres Bush have brought on this earth. The earth doesn't need it.

    Thanks for bringing your views to this American public where I can speakup against them.




    ]

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    Re: Re: Re: something to think about along with my fellow veterans

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by speaker
    [B]
    Originally posted by buffalopundit


    I won't bother to wate any time refuting those claims from pundit who twists the facts and plays with words. If these statements were true, as YOU say, then you are saying two wrongs make a right? Or in this case, a lot of wrongs added to a lot of wrongs, make it all right?
    There's no question that 17000 humans died, and we are living history and witnessing it up close and personal. There is no question that the Iraqui war was a total mistake and based on inaccurate and never researched information. Several other things you mention, pundit, were not wars and were not called that or even represented as such at the time.

    quote:"In the city of Detroit there were 35 murders during the month of January.

    That's only one American city--about as deadly as all of war torn Iraq.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Maybe we should devote some resources to stopping those killings. But as we can see, January 2005 (long after the cessation of major combat operations) was three times deadlier than January 2004, or Detroit.

    Maybe we should stop putting human lives in harm's way in Iraq.

    quote; "Maybe we should devote some resources to stopping those killings."

    Maybe we should do both. And maybe we should have the money to do both.

    There is no question that those are poor values and poor judgment displayed by the president, his lack of forethought about the aftermath of undertaking this war, and lack of concern, along with all of those other issues Bush is trying to force feed down the American gullet. This war will negatively effect every living being on this earth.

    Nice thing, the saving thing, is people are catching on to the creeping brutality which this war and Pres Bush have brought on this earth. The earth doesn't need it.

    Thanks for bringing your views to this American public where I can speakup against them.]
    If you're against the Iraq war, why are you calling me out?
    This website makes money off of a depraved and idiotic conspiracy theory.

  8. #8
    Member jbinbny's Avatar
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    A question

    To buffalopundit, speaker and NCnewbie:

    Have any of you ever served in the military and if so what branch, and what was your MOS?

    No hostility intended, just a question I have.
    Thank you New York, may I please have another!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    No, I've never served in the military. My mother said I was never very good at following orders.

    What I can say though, is that, I truly appreciate the sacrifice of all veterans. That is not conditional of their views on a particular subject. It is because of them, I have my freedom of speech. Thank you.

    Using that freedom of speech, I will say that, I do not agree with this Iraq war. 1700+ US soldiers have died to fight a war that has made our country less safe. Our presence in Iraq has fueled an insurgency that is providing terrorists with deadly experience, and increased the hatred against the US that terrorist recruitment thrives on.

    Now that we are in Iraq however, we need a plan to get out. This may not be today, it may not be tomorrow, and I actually think it is unrealistic to set a date, but I believe we need goals. Such as when electricity is restored 100%, we reduce troops. Or, when the govt has written their constitution, we reduce troops. Or when we train 100,000 Iraqi soldiers, we get out.

    Just my opinion. Once again, thank you to our veterans who have allowed me the freedom to spout it.
    How can we change things?

  10. #10
    Member Nicolas II's Avatar
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    Think that there might be some rumblings from the base of the Vietnam Memorial as President Bush sat down with the leader of Vietnam yesterday to further trade negotiations? Mother Macree!

  11. #11
    Member jbinbny's Avatar
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    Originally posted by NCnewbie
    No, I've never served in the military. My mother said I was never very good at following orders.

    What I can say though, is that, I truly appreciate the sacrifice of all veterans. That is not conditional of their views on a particular subject. It is because of them, I have my freedom of speech. Thank you.

    Using that freedom of speech, I will say that, I do not agree with this Iraq war. 1700+ US soldiers have died to fight a war that has made our country less safe. Our presence in Iraq has fueled an insurgency that is providing terrorists with deadly experience, and increased the hatred against the US that terrorist recruitment thrives on.

    Now that we are in Iraq however, we need a plan to get out. This may not be today, it may not be tomorrow, and I actually think it is unrealistic to set a date, but I believe we need goals. Such as when electricity is restored 100%, we reduce troops. Or, when the govt has written their constitution, we reduce troops. Or when we train 100,000 Iraqi soldiers, we get out.

    Just my opinion. Once again, thank you to our veterans who have allowed me the freedom to spout it.

    I agree when it's said that American troops should not remain in Iraq indefinetly.

    But I do not want the troops to leave before the job is finished. That would be a huge mistake. Another would be to advertise a timetable for their removal. It will not help the fledgling democratic govt taking shape in Iraq one bit.

    Indeed, it would have the direct opposite effect.

    As a former soldier myself, (and I am damned proud of it), I would say that no President should ever commit the US Army, Marines, Navy or Air Force to combat actions without careful consideration of the risks involved and the objective to be achieved.


    That being said, once the US Military is deployed, they do NOT stop until they complete the mission...........NO MATTER HOW LONG IT TAKES!

    The worst thing you can do is commit the armed forces of the US to a mission and not allow them to complete it. THAT IS A BIG MISTAKE!
    Thank you New York, may I please have another!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Originally posted by jbinbny
    I agree when it's said that American troops should not remain in Iraq indefinetly.

    But I do not want the troops to leave before the job is finished. That would be a huge mistake. Another would be to advertise a timetable for their removal. It will not help the fledgling democratic govt taking shape in Iraq one bit.

    Indeed, it would have the direct opposite effect.

    As a former soldier myself, (and I am damned proud of it), I would say that no President should ever commit the US Army, Marines, Navy or Air Force to combat actions without careful consideration of the risks involved and the objective to be achieved.


    That being said, once the US Military is deployed, they do NOT stop until they complete the mission...........NO MATTER HOW LONG IT TAKES!

    The worst thing you can do is commit the armed forces of the US to a mission and not allow them to complete it. THAT IS A BIG MISTAKE!
    Actually I agree with the sentiment that we should "finish the job". My question is What is the job? If we do not know what the job is, how do know when it is completed?

    I also agree that a timetable IS unrealistic. But I do believe guidelines/goals should exist so we know when the mission is completed.

    BTW, thank you for your service!
    How can we change things?

  13. #13
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    Re: A question

    Originally posted by jbinbny
    To buffalopundit, speaker and NCnewbie:

    Have any of you ever served in the military and if so what branch, and what was your MOS?

    No hostility intended, just a question I have.
    Nope. My father was drafted into two armies. The first one in his home country, and then in the US in 1969. I figure he took my slot. I was born in 1968, so when I turned 18 I registered for Selective Service. That was my duty.

    I honor the men and women who fought for this country very, very much. That's why I don't like to see them go off and die in a war that wasn't very well planned, wasn't particularly necessary to the war on terror, and isn't being very well executed.

    But you do realize that whether or not I served is completely irrelevant to my ability to hold my opinion, right?
    This website makes money off of a depraved and idiotic conspiracy theory.

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by jbinbny

    To buffalopundit, speaker and NCnewbie:

    Have any of you ever served in the military and if so what branch, and what was your MOS?
    I cant speak for them but I can speak for me. I did my 20 and retireed in 2001 I was 11b, 11c, and 11m when I got out. Just because I was in the military does not mean I support the current president or his nation building dreams.

    Originally posted by jbinbny
    That being said, once the US Military is deployed, they do NOT stop until they complete the mission...........NO MATTER HOW LONG IT TAKES!

    The worst thing you can do is commit the armed forces of the US to a mission and not allow them to complete it. THAT IS A BIG MISTAKE!
    The mistake is thinking that US soldiers are policeman. They Are not. A US soldier is trained to fight in times of war. The war is over, nation building should be conducted by someone else.
    If you have been in the military you should no that what we have been seeing in the news is wrong. Very wrong.

    Take the prison scandal for instance. An SSG should not be running a prison camp especially a reserve SSG. He has niether the training nor the rank to have all the authority he had. This tells me the military is way overextended when they have a E-6 reservist doing something normaly an E-9 lifer would be doing.

    History will not look back upon this time kindly.

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: something to think about along with my fellow veterans

    Originally posted by buffalopundit
    If you're against the Iraq war, why are you calling me out?
    Sorry, pundit--that was my bad....as night owl sez

    No, I was never in the military. All surrounding me in my life were. I only know the the ripple effect misery when a soldier dies, and the suffering the soldiers, who did come back, went through in various degrees after they found themselves safe at home.

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