Big news this week for all WNY Catholics. Chime in here with you opinion.
My opinion is that it's nothing more than the ugly "C" word.
CONSOLIDATION
It's consolidation wrapped up in a pretty package called "Journey In Faith & Grace" and will be wrapped in a ribbon called a "Mission Statement" and a topped up with a bow called a "Vision Statement".
Hasn't all the Mission and vision statements in WNY failed us already, and now the church is using the "corporate" rhetoric.
I have more opinions, but speak up WNY catholics!
Your opinion should count!
BuffaloFamily
Somebody check my math:
1 Thriving diocese
+Catholics who move to WNY
+ new converts
- Catholics who leave WNY
- Catholics who stopped practicing
+ (3/5 x Cheasters)
=lots of excess capacity in big old buildings that are expensive to maintain and heat, along with emptying schools
Remain calm!! But run for your lives if necessary!
I'm happy to see the church taking a pro-active approach. The church can not afford to keep running in the red on most of those buildings. Last I checked busing was available to most schools anyways.
Yes! It's Horrible! Here's a "BuffaloFamily" solution to the problem:My opinion is that it's nothing more than the ugly "C" word.
CONSOLIDATION
TAX the Methodists, Babtists, Lutherins, and the JEWS (cause they probably have the money) and give that money to the Catholics, so they won't have to utter the dreaded C-word...
Ney, BF, just who are you going to shout GIANT SLOGANS at on this issue?
Opinions are like buttHole$, everybody's got one...Your opinion should count!
You have too many curches like you have too many libraries. Same problem - different revenue stream.
Data is not the plural of Anecdote.
When you can't find a way to rant about taxes, you make one up, Crummie.Originally posted by Curmudgeon
Yes! It's Horrible! Here's a "BuffaloFamily" solution to the problem:
TAX the Methodists, Babtists, Lutherins, and the JEWS (cause they probably have the money) and give that money to the Catholics, so they won't have to utter the dreaded C-word...
Ney, BF, just who are you going to shout GIANT SLOGANS at on this issue?
Opinions are like buttHole$, everybody's got one...
You have too many curches like you have too many libraries. Same problem - different revenue stream.
BTW, it's Baptists and Lutherans...
Hey, Crummie, who are you to stick your snout in any topic?
Your right to buy a military weapon without hindrance, delay or training cannot trump Daniel Barden’s right to see his eighth birthday. -- Jim Himes
The problem with the Catholic Church is that it is rapidly running out of priests since the number of vocations to the priesthood is nowhere near the number needed to replace priests who retire, become ill or die. The average age of priests in most dioceses in the US is over 60. Even with the closing of many small parishes with large buildings in the city and the rural areas, there still aren't enough priests to adequately staff large and growing suburban parishes. This isn't just a WNY problem, it's a problem throughout the country and, indeed, the world.Originally posted by buffalofamily
Big news this week for all WNY Catholics. Chime in here with you opinion.
My opinion is that it's nothing more than the ugly "C" word.
CONSOLIDATION
It's consolidation wrapped up in a pretty package called "Journey In Faith & Grace" and will be wrapped in a ribbon called a "Mission Statement" and a topped up with a bow called a "Vision Statement".
Hasn't all the Mission and vision statements in WNY failed us already, and now the church is using the "corporate" rhetoric.
I have more opinions, but speak up WNY catholics!
Your opinion should count!
BuffaloFamily
Aussie Priest Shortage
Church will benefit if priests are able to marry
By Muriel Porter
January 31, 2005
Celibacy is a rule that the Catholic Church can and should change.
The call by Australian Catholic priests to be allowed to marry is the latest move in a long-running debate that dates back almost to the beginnings of institutionalised Christianity.
The newspaper headlines about the recent submission to the Vatican from the National Council of Priests could theoretically have been written at almost any stage since the 4th century.
The present plea is justified on the basis that drastic action is needed to restore priestly numbers, which in the Western world have dropped markedly over the past 30 years. In Australia the decline is estimated to be about 20 per cent overall, with a much greater drop - about two-thirds - in the numbers of trainee priests.
The requirement of priestly celibacy is perhaps the sole reason for this unprecedented decline. The Anglican and Protestant churches, which permit their clergy to marry, have not suffered any significant shortage of trainees over the same period.
With so few recruits entering the ranks of the priesthood, the average age of Melbourne's Catholic clergy is now more than 60, compared with 44 in 1977 - an alarming statistic. Maintaining the traditional pattern of sacramental worship provided by priests will grow increasingly more difficult unless something is done urgently.
As commentators have pointed out frequently over the past few decades, a married priesthood would not only attract considerable numbers of potential clergy, but would also hopefully allow the return to active ministry of the many priests who left to marry. The acute shortage could be overcome virtually overnight.
So what is the problem? Unlike the issue of women priests, which the Pope has declared to be theologically impossible, the celibacy requirement is not a matter of church doctrine. Rather, it is a discipline only formally imposed on the clergy in 1139, when a church council declared clerical marriage invalid. What the church has banned, the church can restore.
The spiritual gift of priesthood and the spiritual gift of celibacy are not the same."In response to the priests' submission, letter-writers have quickly offered some reasons why the church should not change the celibacy rule. Unmarried clergy have more time to serve their parishes, some have argued. But if a married priesthood provided many more priests, then parishes would all be much better served. In any case, knowing how hard-working most married Protestant clergy are, I would be very surprised if the argument had any substance.
Others have pointed out that celibate clergy are cheaper to maintain and easier to move. Certainly a reordering of financial and housing arrangements would be required for married priests, but that would be a small price to pay for the full restoration of parish ministries.
A former Anglican priest, a married man who was allowed to keep his wife and family when he joined the Catholic priesthood, has - ironically - claimed the celibate priesthood should be retained because it witnesses to the value of sexual abstinence. Father John Fleming has put his finger on the main reason behind the celibacy law, since it was first mooted by a local synod in Spain in the early 4th century.
Sexual intercourse with a woman, even if she was his wife, was held to make a priest cultically impure, because sex was always regarded as defiling. Priests who slept with their wives should not celebrate Mass, or any other sacraments. The requirement of sexual abstinence swiftly made the clergy a class apart, on a higher plane of holiness than ordinary lay Christians. It also gave the clergy patriarchal power based on the avoidance of intimacy with women, the defilers.
Despite the rhetoric, many parish clergy continued to marry and have families until the Middle Ages. But then a fresh insistence on clerical cultic purity - and the papal desire to control clergy loyalty - eventually led to the outright banning of clergy marriage.
Compulsory celibacy has never really worked. As some of the promoters of this latest appeal to the Pope have pointed out, the spiritual gift of priesthood and the spiritual gift of celibacy are not the same. They do not necessarily come together. Forcing priests without the authentic "charism" of celibacy to live without human intimacy is not only cruel, it is also dehumanising and impractical.
The Protestant reformers recognised these problems in the 16th century, and insisted clergy be permitted to marry. They wanted clergy to model for their parishioners the virtues - indeed, the holiness - of marriage and family life. In the process, they unwittingly began the long, slow process, still not complete, of restoring to women the spiritual equality they had enjoyed in Jesus' ministry.
In the 21st century, a full-scale review of the Catholic celibacy law would be long overdue, even if the church did not have its staffing crisis. In the face of that crisis, a review is now a matter of extreme urgency.
Dr Muriel Porter, an Anglican laywoman who writes regularly for The Age on religion, wrote her doctoral thesis on the subject of clergy marriage.
Your right to buy a military weapon without hindrance, delay or training cannot trump Daniel Barden’s right to see his eighth birthday. -- Jim Himes
All churches should be taxed. The churches should be assessed to their full value and taxed accordingly.
It's amazing how much money they have to build these new fantastic churches, but they dont have the money to heat them. I thought for sure St. Gabriels was going to be a little more humble when building their replacement church after the firs tone burned down, but instead I see about 50 humongous stain-quality wooden beams being hoisted into position for the roof.
Also, getting rid of abstinence will not help the shortage of priests. Most of them now are getting into the priesthood so they can either stay "in the closet", or are scared of their own boy fetish.
Quote ErieMan:
If your going to do this, you have to eliminate ALL Not-For-Profits.All churches should be taxed. The churches should be assessed to their full value and taxed accordingly.
I work for a non-profit, and I so I have mixed feelings about the tax issue. The compromise that works for me is to tax property regardless of who owns it, but continue to exempt churches and non-profits from sales tax. If a non-profit can afford to own a building, they can afford to pay the taxes on it. If they can't afford the taxes, they should probably be exploring other options.
The agency I work for owns buildings and rents space in others. I believe we should pay property taxes on the buildings we own just like anyone else.
Treachery made a monster out of me
The only problem is NFPs' must sell their buildings to other NFPs'.
With todays laws.
You would have to write laws that allow NFPs' to profit from the sale of buildings and property. That would then make them For profits.
Tough problem isn't it?
CrumzSEZ:and sez it's:Yes! It's Horrible! Here's a "BuffaloFamily" solution to the problem:TAX the Methodists, Babtists, Lutherins, and the JEWS (cause they probably have the money) and give that money to the Catholics, so they won't have to utter the dreaded C-word...
CRUM, Who is no longer from here..I never suggest anything like you say.
And he who has no valid one probably is one...Opinions are like buttHole$, everybody's got one...
St. Gabe's didn't burn down... it's thriving parish that needed more room. They collected most of the money from the parishioners up front and the rest of the money will be through loans. Some parishes are thriving, but it's hard for many city parishes to support themselves when they have 1/3 of the people in the neighborhood that they used to.Originally posted by ERIEMAN
All churches should be taxed. The churches should be assessed to their full value and taxed accordingly.
It's amazing how much money they have to build these new fantastic churches, but they dont have the money to heat them. I thought for sure St. Gabriels was going to be a little more humble when building their replacement church after the firs tone burned down, but instead I see about 50 humongous stain-quality wooden beams being hoisted into position for the roof.
Also, getting rid of abstinence will not help the shortage of priests. Most of them now are getting into the priesthood so they can either stay "in the closet", or are scared of their own boy fetish.
The answer to the priest shortage... outsourcing! They have plenty of priests in Latin America and Africa; they even have priests from these areas go on "missionary" missions in places like Europe to try and stir up interest in their faith.
Remain calm!! But run for your lives if necessary!
Then they need to be closed, as awful as that is.but it's hard for many city parishes to support themselves when they have 1/3 of the people in the neighborhood that they used to.
The church my family has belonged to for generations is an absolute architectural marvel. It's also in a poor section of the city where I grew up, and there are three other large Catholic churches within five or six blocks in any direction. All four of these churches struggle to remain open because there just aren't as many parishioners as there were back in the day. The members who have moved out of the city don't want to drive back in for mass or activities, because it's a hassle and frankly, they're afraid. The people that remain in the neighborhood are loyal but don't have the financial resources to support the parishes. So the attendence drops a little bit every week and the amount in the collection plate drops as well. Meanwhile there are heating bills and maintenance costs and do you know how much steeple work costs?
The thought of my family's church closing makes me very sad. It's where I went to school, and where so many of the important moments of my life - weddings, graduations, funerals, christenings - have taken place. But we live in a different world now and unfortunately change is sometimes painful. The Church - and churches - need to adapt to the way things are now instead of trying to keep a system that worked in 1940 going.
Last edited by WestSideJohn; June 13th, 2005 at 04:22 PM.
Treachery made a monster out of me
Wow.Hey, Crummie, who are you to stick your snout in any topic?
Since I've been here a lot longer than you, I might ask you the same question.
Data is not the plural of Anecdote.
Well color me wrong...Originally posted by crlachepinochet
St. Gabe's didn't burn down... it's thriving parish that needed more room. They collected most of the money from the parishioners up front and the rest of the money will be through loans. Some parishes are thriving, but it's hard for many city parishes to support themselves when they have 1/3 of the people in the neighborhood that they used to.
The answer to the priest shortage... outsourcing! They have plenty of priests in Latin America and Africa; they even have priests from these areas go on "missionary" missions in places like Europe to try and stir up interest in their faith.
My wife and I almost bought a house on Homeward, which is right next to Gabe's. One of the little old ladies said (in my best polish accent) "Oh, dat church burned down and now dere's lots of noise coming from dose trucks over dere". Now there's a lesson - never trust a little old polish lady!
oh...and
Ahem...priest are less prone to imprisonment in those countries, if you know what i mean. No way would they want to come here.
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