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Thread: The Taylor Law and how it kills taxpayers....

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    The Taylor Law and how it kills taxpayers....

    Anyone have a solid grasp of the ramifications of the Taylor Law. The law was enacted in regards to labor relations among agencies and employee, namely unions. I am no expert (my background is urban planning, not labor law) but what I do know is that public unions have this state by the arse.

    It is nearly impossible to get anything accomplished when it has to do with unions. You can never take anything away from a union, such as health care, vacation time, etc. without them vrying foul and asking for arbitration, a right they are granted. And arbitration never changes anything.

    Here's a good example. Eden offered to take control of Elma Meadows golf course and operate it, not own it, but maintain and operate it. But because of the Taylor Law, they can't because it would be taking work from unionized employees (who are laid off by the way). So instead of a benefit for thousands of county residents by having this open, it can't be because of some technicality.

    If we want things to truly change, we need this law changed.

    We need fair negotiations on behalf of taxpayers. Anyone else sick of council meetings in some towns being adjourned behind closed doors to discuss negoatiations? Why aren't CUSTOMER, that's what we are, allowed to be privy to how our leaders are negotiating on OUR BEHALF?

    We need all decisions made based on the strength of the community, city town, region etc. Whether something is fiscally responsible or feasible. Not whether or not the police force in your town is making the same as the police force in Poughkeepsie.

    The govt in this state needs a massive overhaul and this law is one way to get a good start.

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    Member Linda_D's Avatar
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    First, the town of Eden is not the town of Elma. They are two different towns in Erie County.

    Second, Giambra is willing to open both Elma Meadows and the other county golf course if he can raise various fees so that the courses are "self sustaining".

    Third, by allowing towns to operate county facilities after having laid off the personnel who worked in those facilities, the county is effectively replacing county workers. Yeah, that's against the Taylor Law, but to get that protection, public workers also don't have the right to strike, among other "give backs".

    Fourth, if the town of Elma has the spare staff to run the golf course as well as take care of its own parkland, then maybe Elma has too many parks employees. Maybe it's time Elma gave its own residents a tax break.

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    You're wrong if you think arbitration changes nothing. It usually gives the unions at least some of what they want. Regardless of the town's ability to pay. That's "fair" in the eyes of these "impartial" arbiters. Guess where these characters come from? Why does the NYS Dept of Labor have an entire building dedicated to Labor Relations on the Cornell Campus.

    Other gems from the Taylor Law:

    --If a contract expires, the decks are not cleared for a new agreement. The terms of the old agreement continue in effect until a new one is negotiated. Which is never in a place like Buffalo which needs to update what it pays. The basis for a lot of the current contracts were the early sixties. You never "give back". What the hell's union leadership for if it "gives back".

    -No job once done by union personnel can be done by non-union people.

    What kind of "negotiations" do you really have in Buffalo? "Management" is a bunch of liberal, Democratic hacks. How "tough" do you think those clowns can be?

    The unions always end up hating the Mayor cause there's no dough left in the till. Buffalo has no further taxing authority. If it had any, they'd take it.

    With one aberrant exception, Buffalo has been run by the Democratic Party for the past fifty years, in connivance with their buds the unions. Together, they have created one of the most prosperous municipalities in the county, with a quality of life admired by all.

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    Member Curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Third, by allowing towns to operate county facilities after having laid off the personnel who worked in those facilities, the county is effectively replacing county workers. Yeah, that's against the Taylor Law, but to get that protection, public workers also don't have the right to strike, among other "give backs".
    Here's a simple solution:

    SELL THE GOLF COURSE TO THE HIGHEST PRIVATE-SECTOR BIDDER.

    Why the hell are we socializing/subsidizing golf (and ice rinks) anyway? If Giambra were to make the golf course "self-sustaining", he'd have to charge greens fees that cover the true cost of running a public-sector golf course. And that means getting enough money to pay for the inflated public-sector wages, benefits, and pensions of the employees. Keep in mind that the operation still wouldn't have to pay for property and income taxes. So, the fees would probably be about what you'd pay for private-sector golf, but the town of Eden woudn't be receiving any tax revenue from the property. So, the only people who would win are the civil-service unionized employees.

    I say sell the damned thing and let the private sector work it out.
    Data is not the plural of Anecdote.

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    Linda

    Sorry I forgot you.

    The unions give up the right to strike.

    Big deal.

    Let them strike.

    I'll hand out flyers from fellow unionites who stood firm against those managment goons: the Courier-Express; Litton Industries; Westinghouse; Republic; LTV; Bethlehem.

    The best protection for any worker's job is the health of their employer. The average Buffalo employee wants to put as much distance between him/herself and their employer the City as possible.

    They don't want to live here. They want the State to increase aid so the trough fills up again.

    I'll take a strike and hope we totally break the unions. Wipe them out. Destroy them. There are a lot of my neighbors who would like some of those jobs at a lot less dough. So we'd be buying only those services we need at a cost we who live here can afford.

    Fat chance with the unions' stooges masquerading as "management."

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    As Ronald Reagan was fond of saying "Here we go again".
    First the Taylor law did not stop the Olmstead Conservatory from operating the Olmstead park system in the city and county.
    There are ways that the parks and golf courses could remain open. Sedita citing the Taylor law is just a convinient excuse.
    Now as I have explained here before the Taylor law does not grant binding arbitration rights to all public sector employee unions, In Buffalo, for example, only the police and fire units have that luxury.
    Thinking otherwise is a common misconception by the un-educated perpetuated by business groups eager for private contracts and politicians wishing to grant those private contracts to thier friends.
    The Taylor law offers some protection for keeping public work from being contracted out, but not much. Most of the time that protection is in negotiated agreements between the various municipalities and the unions that represent thier workers.
    True, the Taylor law stipulates that the language of any contract between a union and a municipality stands untill new language is negotiated. It also freezes all wages and benefits at that level.
    For example, some city units have not had any wage increases in four or five years. Gas prices, taxes, food clothing and almost all other living expenses have risen. Gas was about 89 cents a gallon five years ago.
    Aside from that in almost all private industry contract language between a union and a private company stands untill a new agreement is negotiated. I am almost certain that is federal labor law that offers that protection.
    The Taylor law protects the public from strikes by municiple workers. The horrible garbage strike that took place in New York City in the seventies was not by public employee unions. thier routes were picked up, rather it was in the areas of the city where the work was given to private haulers. (NYC is so vast they use more private then public haulers).
    Imagine if the Police and Firemen, teachers and garbage men, snow plowdrivers and crewa that maintained the Traffic signals, clerical workers in city hall and water and sewer workers were allowed by law to strike.
    If any two of those groups went out at the same time it would cripple any municipality. What would be done if the police went out? Vigilanties. Call in the national guard? For how long? And at what cost to the state taxpayers?
    Fire? Would you have a bunch of volunteers with garden hoses?
    Nothing worse on a hot summer day then the smell of weeks of garbage piling up at your curb, ask NYC residents.
    What about the snow? a Bunch of Yahoos with thier f150's rolling down genesee street?
    The Taylor law protects both sides, not just the union side. Read it closley and you will see there are a lot of things about it the municiple unions don't care for either.
    "If you want to know what God thinks of money just look at the people he gave it to."

    By the way, what happened to biker? I miss the old coot.

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    Member Linda_D's Avatar
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    Excel response, citymouse. There are a lot of anti-union posters here who don't know what they're talking about.

    It seems to me that a lot of people want everyone else to work for minimum wage and no benefits except themselves, forgetting that people who don't make much money don't have much money to spend at other businesses. I'm not just talking about the public sector nor simply about some posters on this board, either, but about a general attitude in WNY, particularly among the business community. One of the reasons that this area (WNY) loses so many young college graduates is because so many private employers don't pay competitive wages, not necessarily because the jobs aren't here. Contrary to the popular myth, many young college grads can find work in their fields right here in WNY, but they often have to settle for less pay than grads who go to Pittsburgh or Detroit or even Rochester or Albany. Now, that smaller salary might not be a big problem for the young grad who went to Buff State and lived at home for four years or for the grad whose parents paid his or her way, but most college grads today get a diploma and a payment book for their college loans upon graduation.

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    Member Curmudgeon's Avatar
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    One of the reasons that this area (WNY) loses so many young college graduates is because so many private employers don't pay competitive wages, not necessarily because the jobs aren't here.
    This demonstrates a complete ignorance of how the free-market economy works:

    THe reason why wages are low is that there is a much larger supply of people looking for work than there is the amount of available positions for them to take. There is a labor surplus and a jobs shortage. Whenever that occurs, wages go down. Whenever there is a worker shortage, wages go up.


    The reason why there is a jobs shortage is that employers find it more cost effective to operate in areas other than WNY. The reason why there are so many workers is partially because WNY has a large number of colleges in the area producing new grads who then look for work.

    If you want to raise wages, create demand for employees by creating conditions that encourage employers to stay in WNY and hire people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



    Excel response, citymouse. There are a lot of anti-union posters here who don't know what they're talking about.
    Unfortunately, it's youself and the learned garbageman that are actively contributing to WNY's demise by supporting the same old populist/command-economy practices that have brought WNY to the state it's in today. If it hasn't worked in 30 years, what makes you think it's going to suddenly work now?
    Data is not the plural of Anecdote.

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    Member yokes's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Linda_D
    One of the reasons that this area (WNY) loses so many young college graduates is because so many private employers don't pay competitive wages, not necessarily because the jobs aren't here. Contrary to the popular myth, many young college grads can find work in their fields right here in WNY, but they often have to settle for less pay than grads who go to Pittsburgh or Detroit or even Rochester or Albany. Now, that smaller salary might not be a big problem for the young grad who went to Buff State and lived at home for four years or for the grad whose parents paid his or her way, but most college grads today get a diploma and a payment book for their college loans upon graduation. [/B]
    So if its so easy to pay less in WNY why aren the evil corporations flocking here?

  10. #10
    Member citymouse's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Curmudgeon
    [
    Unfortunately, it's youself and the learned garbageman that are actively contributing to WNY's demise by supporting the same old populist/command-economy practices that have brought WNY to the state it's in today. If it hasn't worked in 30 years, what makes you think it's going to suddenly work now? [/B]
    I see my anti labor friend has returned.
    Tell me, Oh Great and All Knowing, why the demise of the working classstandard of living and quality of life and the exportation of jobs has increased as the number of union workers decreased?
    Back when this country made it's own steel and the majority of it's automobiles and electronic products one bread winner could support a family.
    In your perfect world that is not the case.
    Show me one place in this great republican controlled nation of ours where the average working man can do so today.
    "If you want to know what God thinks of money just look at the people he gave it to."

    By the way, what happened to biker? I miss the old coot.

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    Originally posted by citymouse

    Show me one place in this great republican controlled nation of ours where the average working man can do so today.
    You wouldn't believe him if he told you.

    Waste of time.

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    Re: The Taylor Law and how it kills taxpayers....

    Originally posted by takethepowerback
    Anyone have a solid grasp of the ramifications of the Taylor Law. The law was enacted in regards to labor relations among agencies and employee, namely unions. I am no expert (my background is urban planning, not labor law) but what I do know is that public unions have this state by the arse.

    It is nearly impossible to get anything accomplished when it has to do with unions. You can never take anything away from a union, such as health care, vacation time, etc. without them vrying foul and asking for arbitration, a right they are granted. And arbitration never changes anything.

    Here's a good example. Eden offered to take control of Elma Meadows golf course and operate it, not own it, but maintain and operate it. But because of the Taylor Law, they can't because it would be taking work from unionized employees (who are laid off by the way). So instead of a benefit for thousands of county residents by having this open, it can't be because of some technicality.

    If we want things to truly change, we need this law changed.

    We need fair negotiations on behalf of taxpayers. Anyone else sick of council meetings in some towns being adjourned behind closed doors to discuss negoatiations? Why aren't CUSTOMER, that's what we are, allowed to be privy to how our leaders are negotiating on OUR BEHALF?

    We need all decisions made based on the strength of the community, city town, region etc. Whether something is fiscally responsible or feasible. Not whether or not the police force in your town is making the same as the police force in Poughkeepsie.

    The govt in this state needs a massive overhaul and this law is one way to get a good start.


    This Taylor Law has done one thing for this area...it has placed handcuffs on Eire and Niagara County when it comes to the unions.....I for one want to see this Taylor Law changed. If not changed I like to see it go away....in the trash cann....its nothing but trash anyways.

    For the last what, 30 years this Taylor Law has served no one but the unions in this area and has sucked us residents dry. Yes, sucked the pennies right out of our pockets and if we don't place presure on albany to get this law changed it will continue to suck us dry....because the unions is never change and will keep aking for those golden platers of give-me's or else contracts.
    Riven37
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    All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. Thomas Jefferson

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    http://www.perb.state.ny.us/stat.asp



    Here is the address for the Taylor laws..its on The Gove's web site.....Oh yeah, I was wrong the law came into effect in 1967 its 38 years ago, not 30...
    Riven37
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    All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. Thomas Jefferson

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    For many years, unions were not allowed in the public sector. The fear was that there would be no counter-vailing force to the very intense interest on the part of the union membership.

    With whom were they going to negotiate? Elected officials? In our area, pro-government, pro-union liberal activists? Who was looking out for the taxpayers interests in those negotiating sessions?

    The Taylor Law was put in place to try and put some structural safeguards in place.

    We need only look at the record to see where that has taken us.

  15. #15
    Member jbinbny's Avatar
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    where have the taylor laws taken us???

    to the brink of dissolution!

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