The Taylor Law and how it kills taxpayers....

[avet]

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"When you get your facts straight well debate, if you can do it like an adult."

Let's hear your debate and facts on all the corruption I pointed out in my previous posts. I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT WHAT "USED" TO GO ON IN THE 1800's.

This is 2005. ("Makes the reponse not so great when it is less than honest." )
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"Our insurance was such that when we finally DID get dental health insurance"

How many taxpayers have NO HEALTH INSURANCE WHATSOEVER and HAVE TO PAY FOR YOURS?
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"My pension money was part of my paycheck"

That must be diffucult when YOUR PAID 2 TO 4 TIMES THE NORMAL RATE OF PAY AS THE NON-UNION
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"All he needs, I think is a dose of living and working for "the man" the way it was done in 1880."

All union workers need is a dose of PAYING FOR SOMEONES ELSE'S BENEFITS. There's the "1880's" mindset popping up again that seems to be the ONLY excuse.

Did anyone ever notice that union workers are addicted to their unions just like crack cocain or herion users are addicted to their illegal drugs? They just "can't break that addiction to easy money"
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"Twelve hour days, five days a week and six hours additional in Saturday. Having the doors to your work area locked so you couldn't "waste time" going to the head. Shoving a sandwich into your mouth while on the job because you don't get a luch break. Having your kids drop out of school to get a job to help support the family. Getting docked for time lost if you got hurt on the job.
Yeah, man those were "the good old days" that these guys want us to go back to."


I've given at least a DOZEN cases of union corruption just in New York. Give me ONE CASE of what your saying above. I don't want to hear about something in the 1880's or Dark Ages, cause I can show you thousands of cases of union corruption if you want to go back that far in ANCIENT history.

[citymouse]

Excuse me.
In the above quotes how many of them are from things I posted?
My argument is that left unchecked corporate america would screw the working man with reckless abondenment.
Your disagree?

[citymouse]

As much as you can show me cases of union coruption , I could show you cases of corporations closing here and going over seas to exploit workers. I could show you examples of corporations being indicted for:
A. violating enviromental regulations.
B. abondaning plants here and going overseas to exploit cheap labor.
C. bribing public officials to achieve maximum profit at public and enviromental expense.
Just as many incidents of coporate\ goverment coruption, if not more , as union coruption.
What did you prove? That all unions are corrupt?
What did I prove? That all corporations are corupt?
Hardley.
Do you no what Balance means?
I don't think so.
Companies have a right to profit.
Workers have a right to make a decent living.
It is to bad that the United States has no national health plan.
It is to bad that because of the history of health care In the U.S. the goverment forces the cost on the employer and the employee. The United States is the only industrilized country in the world that does not have national health care. Did you know that?
I think if you look at european countries you will find that vacations and holidays are way behind what they offer in those countries. Did you Know that?
I don't think you do.
This country needs unions to keep employees honest.
Bottom line.
I am 51 years old and have worked as a union member at different places all my life. I have also worked at non-union places.
Do you have that kind of expirience?
I don't think so. If you did your attitude would be different.
You would see thje obvious difference. You would know what the word exploit means.
Untill you walk a mile in my shoes you are unqualified and your opinions and your examples are worthless.

[tomac]

Originally posted by avet

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"Our insurance was such that when we finally DID get dental health insurance"
How many taxpayers have NO HEALTH INSURANCE WHATSOEVER and HAVE TO PAY FOR YOURS?

You mean like me before 1970? That was the year that I got a job that offered health insurance. Prior to that (a computer operator at S.M. Flickenger's) I had NO health insurance and the only time I had off from them was called weekends. I left and found better.
BTW, Flickenger's was another great place to work. When some of the guys in the computer room wanted to join the Teamsters' Union, which controlled the loading docks and drivers, Burt Flickenger himself suggested that "to be fair" we should include the whole clerical staff. When they agreed to it, he started bringing in all the old biddies and telling them how they'd lose all their seniority if a union came in. When the time for the vote came around they all voted "no" and the motion was defeated. Within six weeks, anyone that had spoken out to unionize had been "let go", ads run in the Courier Express and new folks hired (at minimum wage, IMA)

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"My pension money was part of my paycheck"
That must be diffucult when YOUR PAID 2 TO 4 TIMES THE NORMAL RATE OF PAY AS THE NON-UNION

You're great for throwing numbers around; to bad they have NO basis in reality. Where are you getting them from? My starting wage was $2.38/hour in 1970; when I left, I was earning just under $20.00, which was still less than my counterparts in the private sector, although I worked 52 weeks a year and they were more seasonal, depending on the company. Their annual take was still more than mine by about $5k to $7K.
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"All he needs, I think is a dose of living and working for "the man" the way it was done in 1880."
All union workers need is a dose of PAYING FOR SOMEONES ELSE'S BENEFITS. There's the "1880's" mindset popping up again that seems to be the ONLY excuse.
Did anyone ever notice that union workers are addicted to their unions just like crack cocain or herion users are addicted to their illegal drugs? They just "can't break that addiction to easy money"

"Twelve hour days, five days a week and six hours additional in Saturday. Having the doors to your work area locked so you couldn't "waste time" going to the head. Shoving a sandwich into your mouth while on the job because you don't get a luch break. Having your kids drop out of school to get a job to help support the family. Getting docked for time lost if you got hurt on the job.
Yeah, man those were "the good old days" that these guys want us to go back to."
I've given at least a DOZEN cases of union corruption just in New York. Give me ONE CASE of what your saying above. I don't want to hear about something in the 1880's or Dark Ages, cause I can show you thousands of cases of union corruption if you want to go back that far in ANCIENT history.

My grandad worked for the Pennsy Railroad and worked those hours back in the 20s and 30s. Coalminers worked those hours into the 50s and early 60s.
You want current? Nike and a lot of the other garment manufacturers can't wait to take their jobs overseas. Why? Because thge labor is all NON-union. look at how much those people are making and what kind of working condition they have to endure. Now if YOU'RE willing to work for serf-wages, no benefits and miserable hours, then God bless you. You'll have a long career.
And the last statement that I made and you snipped, the one about retirement? My dad's next-door-neighbor worked as a fabric cutter at M. Wile. The guy contracted "white lung", a condition where a person inhales small cloth fibers and dust while working with fabric. It similar in effect to the "black lung" that kills coalminers. He died strangling for a breath of air, and suffered for a couple of years.
At his funeral, I heard a couple of his co-workers stating how he got the "M. Wile Retirement Package" (i.e. an early death).
Welcome to the world, pal; is this the way you want to spend you life and just what you want for everyone else?

[granpabob]

the iron workers could not provide enough work for all their members so I found a job to help pay for the food my family wanted and the great Iron workers union fined me for working with non union people. it was a residential job but they still wanted only union people. another time I lost a good job I was working to fill in until the union found work for us. they required me to join a picket line. even though it would cost to skip work. I tried to tell them I could not take time off and the answer was "it does not matter I had to picket. or hire someone to picket for me. then the last straw I got a part time job managing a construction yard and they took away my book. Its all union or nothing even when there is no union work. they think your can afford to sit arround waiting for the golden goose to hand you a big pay check. it does not work that way anymore. you have to find other wiork or leave the area to find work,

[citymouse]

I am sorry to hear horror stories like this.
However, My father was in the utu, By grand father was a sheet metal worker, I have been in , over the years, the auto workers, IBEW, BRAC (now the TCU) and AFSCME.
I ,and those I know ,have had never had problems like you are describing.
I don't boubt things like that might happen, on both sides,corporations are even more vindictive if they smell union organization.
I just never heard witnessed or been involved in such strong arm tactics or seen that kind of corruption.

[granpabob]

I have taken non union workers on jobs that were supposed to be open sites guards were needed on the eguipment. the labors unions are the worst ones. guages on the compreesor get broken gravel in the oil fill tubes tires slashed batteries punctured etc. and harrassment of the workers just because they think it should be all union. of course you dont see it when you are on the union side problem is workers have to work pickets get bored and try to find something to keep them busy. if a job is bid for union only then it should be union but when its not they have no right to force non union workers of the site. and yes both are good workers and both sides have bad workers, non union just get more exsperience they work all year not many union scale jobs around to keep the union guys working more the ten or twenty weeks

[tomac]

Originally posted by granpabob
I have taken non union workers on jobs that were supposed to be open sites guards were needed on the eguipment. the labors unions are the worst ones. guages on the compreesor get broken gravel in the oil fill tubes tires slashed batteries punctured etc. and harrassment of the workers just because they think it should be all union. of course you dont see it when you are on the union side problem is workers have to work pickets get bored and try to find something to keep them busy. if a job is bid for union only then it should be union but when its not they have no right to force non union workers of the site. and yes both are good workers and both sides have bad workers, non union just get more exsperience they work all year not many union scale jobs around to keep the union guys working more the ten or twenty weeks

I agree. I emboldened the line that I agree with the most.
Local 210 (run by Joe Fino - Joel Giambra's step-father) was riddled with corruption and mob domination for decades and still is to this day. The reason that they harassed non-union workers was that the mob was getting a good share of their pension funds and kick-backs from contractors and municipalities. Doesn't make it right; just a fact of life. To the best of my knowledge, the CSEA and AFSCME were not infiltrated by the mob, and definately not to the degree of the Laborers and some of the others.
I have seen their union rep assualt a driver on a construction site with no accountability. The driver, an old guy of "Cheektowaga" descent was upset at the hold-up and mouthed off to the flagman (also Union Rep). The flagman reached in and grabbed the old guy by the nose and twisted hard, breaking it. The old timer took off and the flagman looked back at my boss and the rest of the crew and advised us that we saw NOTHING. It didn't matter - the cops never did show up.
That incident I saw, I heard of dozens of others. 210 was and still is a bad act.

[granpabob]

yes management will takeadvantageof their position I know I would be tempted to make more profits. but they are not the only problem. labor has also gone over board.manufacturing should be one union construction one union,transportation one union sure you would need men trained and licensed for certain fields but if a laborer needs a hand any man near him should be able to help.carpenteers can help stretch wire just have to be checked by the electrican. just two examples of many. my point is todays unions insist that no one crosses job fields. As for public unions what management do they fight. we are their bosses.they make the rules that we all must follow. they are the government that they strike against why do they need a union

[granpabob]

we all pay taxes and as tax payers we own the government .everyone who works for the government works for the tax payers. owners are not allowed to be union members they are management, its in the union regulations. so if you pay taxes you can not be in a government union since it would be a conflict of interest for you to work for yourself, any one in a management position must give up his union book, I know they did this to me even though I helped manage a non union company in a differant field, Union officers should be thrown out of the union since they become management when they become officers. Once they have taxes removed from their paychecks government workers become part owners of the government they work for. thus management and by they're own rules can not be union members. I know my brain works in weird dirrections some times does this almost make sense to someone, if it does they might be coming to take you away also

[tomac]

Originally posted by granpabob
we all pay taxes and as tax payers we own the government .everyone who works for the government works for the tax payers. owners are not allowed to be union members they are management, its in the union regulations. so if you pay taxes you can not be in a government union since it would be a conflict of interest for you to work for yourself, any one in a management position must give up his union book, I know they did this to me even though I helped manage a non union company in a differant field, Union officers should be thrown out of the union since they become management when they become officers. Once they have taxes removed from their paychecks government workers become part owners of the government they work for. thus management and by they're own rules can not be union members. I know my brain works in weird dirrections some times does this almost make sense to someone, if it does they might be coming to take you away also

Bob, you're correct in your analogy. We ARE the owners of the government. And we've hired (elected) Joel to manage the store for us. He is management, not you or me. He has brought in a lot of upper level management to help him (mis)run the enterprise.
And now after five years of his mismanagement, he is saying that its all the fault of the workers.
He is a liar. When Gorski was the elected leader of Erie County, we had a solid bond rating, money in the bank as an escrow fund against emergencies and the County was in good fiscal strength.
Giambra came in by lowering the tax levels by 30% - 35% (income) and by syphoning off ALL of our cash on hand and handing it over to his pals. He has stolen from you and blamed the janitor.
What happens next in three years when he runs for state-wide office?

[avet]

"I am 51 years old and have worked as a union member at different places all my life. I have also worked at non-union places."

"Untill you walk a mile in my shoes you are unqualified and your opinions and your examples are worthless."
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I'm older than you, mister "holier than thou". I worked for a couple multimillion dollar corporations for many years, and after a while, became the production manager and ran both union and non-union crews. I worked in and on virtually every commercial building from Rome, NY (U.S. Weapons Storage - with armed guards at our side - I had Top Secret clearance from previous military experience) to beyond Jamestown NY (ex. Cummings Diesel Plant). Jails, schools, armouries, etc., ( I was working in the armoury when they were filming "The Natural" and had sets built inside it. I walked through all those sets) federal and state buildings. I have been at every single barn to get repair work completed and or measurements for equipment or new contruction multiple times. I have sat in on many bids on many contracts for local, state and federal jobs, from dot barns to nuclear facilities, I have been to M. Wile, the Chevy plant, Trico, Bethlaham Steel plant, many times. I've probably forgotten more places than you have ever been too in almost thirty years.

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"Do you have that kind of expirience?
I don't think so"

"You would see thje obvious difference"
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So Mr "mouse", take your oversize "walk a mile in my shoes" shoes out of your "holier than thou" mouth.

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"My argument is that left unchecked corporate america would screw the working man with reckless abondenment.
Your disagree?"
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Your "implying" the unions are preventing this? HOW?

What are the unions doing to stop, say, major #1 CORRUPT CORPORATIONS like HALLIBURTON, ETC. ?

NOTHING !! The teamsters, longshoremen, etc. continue to "serve" them, even though "it's a fact" that these corporations are corrupt.
They, if anyone, have the power to stop them, but they'll gladly do business with a smile as long as they get their "cut".
They'll shut down entire docks, shipping, etc. only if "they" don't get their raises and bonuses.

So your arguement has NO MERIT WHATSOEVER for "keeping check on corporate america"
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"What did you prove? That all unions are corrupt?
What did I prove? That all corporations are corupt? "
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What are you saying? That unions are stopping corporate corruption?
Common facts disprove that notion, corupt companies are flourishing, and making record profits while unions continue to serve them.

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"This country needs unions to keep employees honest."
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Reviewing a "History" of unions, besides the previous recent corruption I listed, it sounds like a "Who's Who" of crime.

THIS IS JUST SOME, TRYING TO PERTAIN IT TO NEW YORK ONLY

Buffalo, New York
Buffalo Crime Family
http://www.americanmafia.com/Cities/Buffalo.html

"Stefano Magaddino was born on October 10, 1891, in Castellammare, Sicily. Before leaving Sicily, the Magaddino brothers, Antonino, Pietro, and Stefano, were involved in a feud with the Buccellato brothers. During this time, Pietro was murdered and the other two brothers left for the United States settling in Brooklyn. On August 16, 1921, Magaddino was arrested as a fugitive from justice involving a murder that took place in Avon, New Jersey. Shortly after this, Magaddino and Gaspar Milazzo were shot at as they walked out of a Brooklyn store. The attempted ambush resulted in the death of two innocent bystanders. The shooting attempt had been made by members of the Buccellato clan. The retaliation would claim the lives of several Buccellato men. When police suspected Magaddino and Milazzo, the both left Brooklyn for Buffalo and Detroit, respectively."

According to the Department of Justice, leadership of the Buffalo mob is still a family affair. Since the mid-1980s, local organized crime operations are run by Joseph "Lead Pipe Joe" Todaro, Sr. and his son, Joseph Todaro Jr. Todaro, Sr. was born in 1923. He was active in labor unions and this is where he may have picked up the nickname.

The Todaros are related by marriage to Robert "Bobby" Panaro, who moved from Buffalo and has been in the Las Vegas area for almost 30 years. Panaro is currently under indictment in Las Vegas after a FBI undercover operation was revealed after the murder of Herbert "Fat Herbie" Blitzstein. In addition to Panaro, Buffalo-born Steve Cino, now of the Los Angeles Family, and former Buffalo hood Ron Fino were involved. The FBI believed that members of the Buffalo, Los Angeles and New York Gambino family were active trying to gain a new foothold in Las Vegas.
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1976: Funeral of Mafia boss held in NY
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2453185.stm

The funeral of Carlo Gambino, the 'boss of the bosses' in the Mafia, has taken place in New York.
Mr Gambino, considered the most powerful of the leaders of the American Mafia, died in his sleep at his home on Friday. It is thought he suffered a heart attack.

Paul Castellano took over from Carlo Gambino as head of the family. A cousin of Mr Gambino he had previously set up construction bids, union affairs and political ties.
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Overall, the Laborers' International Union has about 750,000 dues-paying members and is one of the largest and most politically connected unions in the country. But young Anthony Esposito sees the current Trusteeship action as simply a case of the East Coast Mafia guys who run the Laborers' International staging a sacrificial bloodletting on the Chicago Mafia guys who run the Laborers' Union here.
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Where officials of Locals 1001 and 1006, as well as the District Council itself have ties to the Giancanas and Accardos of local organized crime lore, Laborers’ International boss Arthur Coia is himself tied to the Lucchese, Genovese, Todaro and Patriarca branches of the Mafia in New York, Buffalo and Boston.
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‘”The mob controls the union in Chicago, New York, Boston and Rhode Island. We have to go one at a time, and Chicago is a good place to start,” McGough said.
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Dutch Schultz
Upon his return to polite society, Schultz began infiltrating the New York restaurant workers unions. By having his cronies run for elected union offices, stuffing ballot boxes, and roughing up union delegates already in positions of power, Schultz's men quickly gripped the city's eateries in an iron grasp. Gorillas cajoled restaurant owners into signing contracts stating that they would pay the racketeers protection money of their own free will.
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Federal authorities say Mafia gangsters control 104 New York locals, embracing 163,000 members, of four major unions-the Longshoremen, Laborers, Teamsters, and Hotel and Restaurant Employees. Such control, reports the President's Commission on Organized Crime, "has enabled the Mob to determine who will do business, to decide when and where people will work and even to dictate wages and benefits. Millions of consumers unknowingly pay organized crime a surcharge on a wide range of goods and services."

A trucking company executive who dared tell a grand jury about Mob methods of dealing with competitors and honest unions was murdered by a hail of bullets from a passing car.

For example, four New Jersey banks closed after corrupt unions
lured them into accepting big deposits of benefit funds and relending the money to gangsters-who failed to repay. One Mob-connected swindler snaked $14.5 million out of another New Jersey bank, much of which went into a loansharking operation and to a drug dealer.
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Albert Anastasia (orig. Umberto Anastasio; he was dubbed by the press as "the Lord High Executioner" of Murder Inc., the enforcement arm of the Mafia) was an devoted ally of Charlie Luciano in the 20s and 30s and an enforcer of the will of Frank Costello after that. With Joe Adonis, he reportedly controlled a portion of the Brooklyn docks and the unions that worked them
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Saying that crooks had infiltrated numerous industries and labor unions, Brennan added: “Too many local governments are responsive more to the mob than to the electorate that put them in office.”
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Although the family engages in the same rackets traditionally associated with other LCN families, the strength of the DeCavalcante family lies in its influence over some of the construction industry in New Jersey through corrupt unions – Local 394 of the International Brotherhood of Laborers and Hod Carriers in Elizabeth and Laborers International Union District Council 30 in Millburn.
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we can assume that in securing the New York harbor
against sabotage, the mafia and the longshoremen's unions, which
it controlled, used techniques that the government--the armed
forces and the local government as well--were unwilling to use.
Longshoremen were selected for jobs at the "shape up" in hiring
halls, and perhaps those who looked or sounded German were no
longer hired. Perhaps suspicious characters on the docks ended
up in the water with few questions asked.
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It is a daunting challenge: To bring ethics and accountability to the International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT)—long viewed as one of the most intractably corrupt labor unions in America.
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HEADLINE: MAFIA DOMINATES BUILDING TRADE IN N.Y., STUDY FINDS
A major New York state study concluded Thursday that organized crime is involved in every phase of the construction industry in New York City and the Mafia is so entrenched that builders see it as a necessary evil to keep projects running smoothly.

In a 130-page report that took two years to prepare, the organized crime task force not only outlined startling mob penetration of unions and contractors but massive featherbedding leading to inflated labor costs.

The report said also that unethical contractors set up shell corporations and use them for bribery or to funnel cash to themselves for living expenses. Dissident members of mob-controlled unions are murdered. Sabotage at construction sites is designed to prevent contractors from dealing with honest unions. Bid rigging by mob-controlled contractors is common. The mob finances gambling and loan sharking at construction sites.
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[avet]

"Welcome to the world, pal; is this the way you want to spend you life and just what you want for everyone else?"
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Nope ! I don't like to see "anyone" suffering, or especially only "A CERTAIN FEW" getting MUCH MORE than the "typical average worker" doing the same work.

You got yours, that's all you care about right?

Even if it ment a person who had very little, and everything to loose, "had to" pay MORE for it.

[granpabob]

Many times I was told that no non union workers were allowed on a job site. well that is not totally true, we were not allowed unless we paid the union. all they want is the union due and a "work permit fee" dues had to be paid even though we got no union benefitas and the work fees those were usually a few hundred dollars thatwe all knew never made it to the union. if the job paid good enough my company paid it. the union also handed us a chart with how much each type of worker had to be paid.Often I could make more by the incentive based pay I normally recieved but that was not allowed. they also made us stop for breaks at regularly schedualled times. we normally stop when the job permits but no you have to stop by the clock. of course we always had to watch the com[pany managers we worked for they tried to pay us the bare mininum. no union ever helped if management tried to cheat word passed real quick and no one would work for them next time. after forty years of this crap I got smart and changed fields so I did not have to deal with labor myself.construction arround buffalo is a big game where everyone cheats the system befor it cheats them. I've had enough looking over my shoulder checking every pay check wondering if I crossed some invisible union boundry. At 58 I dont need it .