Convention Center/Outer Harbor

[Linda_D]

Here's the News' view on the convention center and hotel in the Outer Harbor:

Preferred Development Plan

Here's a critique of said plan:
Another Voice

To me, this development plan will end up like most other boondoggles that have plagued Buffalo for at least the past 40 years: lots of taxpayers $$ spent on grandiose white elephants that never live up to a tenth of their expectations!

Would somebody tell the NFTA and its developers that the Outer Harbor isn't really suitable for year-round habitation and recreation? I think the development of this area really should be geared toward seasonal activities because of the harshness of the climate and the limited access to the area.

[WNYresident]

Let them build what ever they want as LONG as it's with thier money. NOT ONE TAX PAYER PENNY. A lot of these stupid ideas do NOT benefit the tax payer even though they take our money for them.

Look how that subway that cost MILLIONS helped turn Buffalo around, look how Pilot stadium turned Buffalo around, look how the millions into the theatre district turned buffalo around etc etc etc.

How many people reading this message board have never been to either of these places even though your CASH paid for some of it.

Build these items but let people who want them support them and pay for them.

[speaker]

So then let's opt for light rail--from the burbs, downtown or whatever. We need something here for the winter months,too. I just want a beach to be put in all those plans.
People do live on the water during the winter, and many people who live on the lake wouldn't have it any other way.
We, the people, are a power to be reckoned with.

[Linda_D]

I agree, but the problem is that every one of these projects always "requires" public $$.

The first "downtown renewal/revitalization" project I remember is Main Place Mall back in the 1960s. Then they expanded Memorial Auditorium. Then there was the Convention Center and the downtown hotels. The subway. The Theatre District. Erie Community College's downtown campus. Pilot Field. Turning Chippewa Street from red light district to yuppy bar district. Lately it's been housing in downtown, but the really big one that's coming is Bass Pro shops in the old Aud, a 250,000 sporting goods store complete with museum and hotel that will cost the nearly bankrupt city, county, and state $66 million -- for about 400 mostly part-time retail jobs!

A Seneca casino in the convention center would have cost the city and county nothing in subsidies, and only a hardly used white elephant. Instead, Masiello insisted on "my way or the highway" (put the casino in the old Statler Hotel), and Giambra agreed. The city would have received $$ instead of spending bucks! The current downtown hotels would have prospered. None of the horrors predicted by casino opponents, especially the Buffalo News, have materialized in Niagara Falls, and the NF casino's created 2000+ jobs, most full time, and many paying very well.

Obviously, actually revitalizing downtown, is NOT quite as important to them as Masiello and Giambra would like people to believe. Better to have little or no development than the "wrong" kind -- ie, not the deep-pocket developers who contribute lavishly to political campaigns. Better to spend taxpayer bucks on pie-in-the-sky projects doomed to disappoint than to actually have a project do better than expected and actually contribute to the public coffers.

[WNYresident]

But some people like me do NOT want to pay millions for a train to take them back and forth. Wait 100's of millions

[WNYresident]

for about 400 mostly part-time retail jobs!

Do the public service sector of Erie County know basspro is on the way? 400 openings.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by speaker
So then let's opt for light rail--from the burbs, downtown or whatever. We need something here for the winter months,too. I just want a beach to be put in all those plans.
People do live on the water during the winter, and many people who live on the lake wouldn't have it any other way.
We, the people, are a power to be reckoned with.

Have you ever driven Rte 5/Fuhrman Blvd during the late fall/winter? The area between the harbor and the highway becomes a tundra because the area is extremely exposed to the coldest winds (north, northwest, and west). It's also very vulnerable to lake effect snow storms. This is NOT four season tourist area!

Moreover, it has limited access: the Skyway, Ganson Street(?) -- the area that wends through the old grain elevator and industrial parts of SB to downtown, and Tifft Street. Building a tunnel to replace the Skyway is more pie-in-the-sky manure, but perhaps a ground level road with a lift bridge over the Buffalo River is feasible.

[speaker]

NFTA Chairman Luiz F. Kahl said that if the community does not want an outer harbor convention center, it will not happen: "This project doesn't hinge on a convention center. This isn't an all-or-nothing proposal."
We do have a choice and a voice. I see your point about the convention center.
Yes, I certainly do drive that section of Route 5 and I know it well. It's beautiful in the warm months, and a "tundra" in the dead of winter. But it needn't be so deserted. If the proposed development were to be large enough and well done, enough to make it worth the travel from western NY, Canada and surrounding states, it would work. The location is central and poised next to the water where it would attract boaters and even lake cruises in the summer, and summer breezes. I would like to see an indoor water park, in the winter, an oasis, so to speak. Keep the convention center in downtown Buffalo and the tenants could travel out to the new center. But please, no casino. Especially one that would cost the city and county money and never get it back in taxes. If the "new" convention center wanted to include a casino area--well that's all for the good. True, there have been a lot of mistakes made in Buffalo, some that you mentioned. But let's aim high and big.
This area needs a bigger and better Crystal Beach, without all the rides.

[Curmudgeon]

Here's an idea: How about auctioning off the whole thing and letting private capital decide what is the "best" use for the land. If you don't want factories or garbage dumps there, zone the parcels accordingly prior to auction.

Everybody want to come up with "great ideas" on what they want the land used for, but nobody wants to pay for their ideas, either individually or as taxpayers.

I think 50+ years of do-nothing public-sector control of that property is enough. Time to take it away from the socialized bus & train monopoly (NFTA) and sell it to the private sector, who then do the best job possible improving the property and turning it into something productive.

[citymouse]

It is kind of a rock and a hard place situation. You don't want to just parcel off the land a sell it to individuals who might just sit on it or try to speculate. I am sure it would go to well connected individuals anyway.
On the other hand what good does it do to leaveit in the hands of the NFTA? The grand plans that have been discussed so far include large amounts of Public funding. With out it they seem incapable of getting any thing done, In fact with our money they seem incapable of getting any thing done.
I still think small business people should develop it lot by lot with a certain amount of green space and public access to be the main attraction.
Agood start would have been the guy leasing the pier. He made it work . He tried to buy it and improve the property on his own with out public money but the NFTA would not talk to him. he has been by far the most succesful tenant at the site because he did not aim for the stars. He aimed low and was slowly building, booking more events and attracting more and more people.
That however did not fit into the grand scheme of things and he is not politically connected to the right people, so they terminated his lease coming in October.
I think they are doing this backward.

[Curmudgeon]

You don't want to just parcel off the land a sell it to individuals who might just sit on it or try to speculate.

Property taxes are a disencentive to "just sit on a property" without generating revenue from it. Also, since it was auctioned, we can assume that the buyer paid market value for the property - he didn't buy it at a discount so there is no profit to be made by selling the undeveloped parcel as-is at some point in the future.

I am sure it would go to well connected individuals anyway.

That's the beauty of "public auction". If Osama Bin Laden wants the property, all he has to do is be the highest bidder.

I still think small business people should develop it lot by lot with a certain amount of green space and public access to be the main attraction.

OK. subdivide the parcel and auction it off, lot by lot.

[Linda_D]

Here's more on the Outer Harbor from a couple of years ago ... it evaluates the three plans. Whether you decide to read it all or not, read the last several paragraphs which point out a GREAT BIG PROBLEM with building canals -- maybe with building housing, too -- on this site.

Audubon Evaluates Harbor Plans

[300miles]

but part of the reason for the delay over the past few years has been the NFTA having engineering and environmental studies done on the site to make sure it's safe enough to develop.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by 300miles
but part of the reason for the delay over the past few years has been the NFTA having engineering and environmental studies done on the site to make sure it's safe enough to develop.

Yeah, and Hickory Woods was supposed to be "safe", too, and that's still haunting the city.

Besides, excavating for footings or for water and sewer lines is one thing, digging canals is quite another. That's the real environmental hazard here. Where would the dirt from these canals be taken? How would Lake Erie and the rest of the harbor be protected from contaminated water from these canals?

[300miles]

I'm not familiar with Hickory Woods... I would have hoped that after nightmares like Love Canal, they would be wiser to what's underground. But like you, I wouldn't trust them to have learned anything.

As for the proposed canals though... they don't necessarily need to be of exposed dirt or natural walls... it's possible they will be sealed cement viaducts so that the existing soil and sediment isn't affected by the water above. Of course that can crack...

don't forget this area will also include residences and parklands. The soil will have to be safe enough for kids to play and people to swim at the beach. If the soil is as contaminated as you think then this entire project shouldn't go ahead at all, not just the canals. It's hard to imagine they would be that negligent with such a high profile project.