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Thread: All this building, and no talk of light rail extensions!

  1. #1
    moadib
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    All this building, and no talk of light rail extensions!

    I hear all these great things about the outer harbor development but I have noticed that the agency that is responsible for regional transportation is noticeably absent about any plans to incorporate light rail extension into the development.

    Why is that?

    You know rochester is using state and federal funds to incorporate a performing arts center, a downtown college annex and office/residential space into a bus station...all using transportation dollars.

    Seems to me that the NFTA would want to pursue some transportation dollars to help finance the outer harbor development, especially with 3-4 million visitors a year expected for bass pro!

    Seems like the NFTA wants to be in every business except transportation! Look at the momentum on major regional transportation issues:
    1) Signature Peace Bridge (stalled)
    2) Skyway Tunnel Replacement (not even being discussed)
    2) Extending Light Rail to the Airport (stalled)
    3) Extending Light Rail to Niagara Falls (stalled)
    4) Extending Light Rail into the outer harbor development (not being discussed)
    5) Working jointly with other regional planning organizations to create an Inter-Urban between Syracuse, Finger Lakes, Rochester, Batavia and Darian Lake (not even being discussed)
    6) Working jointly with other regional planning organizations to create a passenger ship (cruise, ferry, excursion, entertainment, etc) service between Lake Erie Ports: Port Colborne-Ca, Erie-PA, Cleveland, Sandusky, Toledo, Detroit, etc)
    7) Spending more money to market the Port of Buffalo for Intermodal Lake Traffic.
    8) Lobbying for High Speed Rail between Buffalo and NYC, or High Speed Rail between Buffalo and Cleveland, or between Buffalo and Pittsburgh, or between Buffalo and Toronto!

    It just seems to me that an Institution responsible for transportation would be the loudest and most vocal advocate for Transportation related issues. BECAUSE FRANKLY IF A REGIONAL INSTITUTE RESPONSIBLE FOR TRANSPORTATION WERE NOT ADVOCATING, ENDORSING AND PROMOTING TRANSPORTATION, THEN SHOULDNT WE BE DEMANDING THAT A CITIZENS ADVISORY PANEL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR SETTING THE PRIORITY PROJECTS FOR THE REGION OR DEMANDING THE NFTA BE DISBANDED / PRIVATIZED!

    IF THE ONLY THING THE NFTA IS GOOD FOR IS DAY TO DAY MANAGEMENT AND REAL ESTATE DEVELOPMENT, WELL THEN, WE HAVE NON-PROFITS WHO CAN MANAGE DAY TO DAY AFFAIRS AND WE HAVE PUBLIC AND PRIVATE SECTOR DEVELOPERS ALREADY....WHY DO WE NEED A TRANSPORTATION COMPANY (NFTA) THAT ACTS LIKE IT DOESNT WANT RESPONSIBILITY FOR TRANSPORTATION!

  2. #2
    moonshine
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    You know rochester is using state and federal funds to incorporate a performing arts center, a downtown college annex and office/residential space into a bus station...all using transportation dollars.
    You say this as if it is some sort of accomplishment to be congratulated. Did aliens give the money to the federal and state government or did taxpayers?

  3. #3
    moonshine
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    Now that I have read all of your ideas I have one thing to say: SCARY!

    Let's build a light rail to the moon with taxpayer dollars. Sounds cool! Who cares about practicality.

    I'll address them one by one:
    1) Signature Peace Bridge (stalled) - this is what happens when too many beaurocrats get involved in an engineering project
    2) Skyway Tunnel Replacement (not even being discussed) - The aliens haven't provided the cash yet
    2) Extending Light Rail to the Airport (stalled) - Take a cab
    3) Extending Light Rail to Niagara Falls (stalled) - Hopefully it will extend OVER the falls
    4) Extending Light Rail into the outer harbor development (not being discussed) - What outer harbor? A train to nowhere?
    5) Working jointly with other regional planning organizations to create an Inter-Urban between Syracuse, Finger Lakes, Rochester, Batavia and Darian Lake (not even being discussed) - WOW! That was a lot of bureau-speak in one sentence. I think greyhound and amtrak have proved that this service isn't profitable.
    6) Working jointly with other regional planning organizations to create a passenger ship (cruise, ferry, excursion, entertainment, etc) service between Lake Erie Ports: Port Colborne-Ca, Erie-PA, Cleveland, Sandusky, Toledo, Detroit, etc) - Ah, yes, a bankrupt ferry. Sounds splendid!
    7) Spending more money to market the Port of Buffalo for Intermodal Lake Traffic. "Spending more money". Haven't you already spent enough?
    8) Lobbying for High Speed Rail between Buffalo and NYC, or High Speed Rail between Buffalo and Cleveland, or between Buffalo and Pittsburgh, or between Buffalo and Toronto! - Um, it's called JetBlue, AirTran, or any other low-cost carrier. You seem to have a real hard-on for trains

  4. #4
    Gold Member Night Owl's Avatar
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    try to easy up on the all caps, it's like yelling on the internet.

  5. #5
    moadib
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    How very sad? Your opinions are very myopic?

    Yes, I am proud that Rochester as able to use federal and state transportation funds for both transportation and non-transportation projects by bundling them together.

    Buffalo is only represented by a few state and federal representatives compared with the total and yes if Buffalo doesnt come up with projects to use that money, if wont be saved and returned to the taxpayers in the form of lower taxes but go to raises/benefits for civil service employees or projects in other cities. I wish Buffalo was so well run that we could set an example for the rest of the state and the rest of the country but we are not there yet.

    As far as having a hard on for trains, thats a very classy comment which speaks volumes about the commentator. However, you neglect the larger point.

    Buffalo has always been a city founded on its transportation infrastructure. Buffalo handles nearly $100 billion a year between the US and Canada over its transportation infrastructure....which should be leveraged into jobs and services for WNY but arent.

    Buffalo should re-connect itself to other Lake Erie Cities
    Buffalo should re-connect itself with other Upstate communities
    Buffalo should re-connect itself with other Regional Centers

    Cities grow because they are centers: Cultural Centers, Business Centers of all Professionals, Entertainment Centers, etc. The more Buffalo is considered a Regional Center, the more jobs will be attracted to us improving our lives and our communities.

    Businesses like people go where they can maximize revenue, minimize their costs, minimal risk and numerous natural assets that enhance their business ranging from the pool of skilled workers to quality of life.

    There are numerous examples of public and private partnerships that built cities like Dallas, Pheonix, Atlanta, Charlotte, etc. Those cities built the infrastructure and the business and the people flocked to the those cities just as most people buy existing homes rather than build new....so do businesses like to go where they have the highest probability of success. Therefore, if Buffalo had the infrastructure....the jobs and businesses and the people would follow!

    If you disagree, then perhaps you should move to one one those cities where there is no government....though I know of no community that refuses federal or state money. Ive been to the heart of those anti-tax states and let me tell you something ... they are bigger pigs for federal and state funds than Buffalo! Much of their cities and states were built with state and federal dollars sunk into speculative infrastructure projects! ITS NOT THAT BUFFALO HAS TO MUCH INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENT....BUT THAT BUFFALO HAS TO LITTLE INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENT AND WHAT LITTLE IT HAS GOTTEN, HAS BEEN VERY BADLY MISMANAGED. WE SHOULDNT BE ASKING FOR LESS AND THINKING SMALLER, BUT DEMANDING MORE AND THINKING BIGGER!

  6. #6
    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    A cruise ship connecting lake erie cities is still a possibility in the works:

    Aquarama / Marine Star:
    http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial...24/1063357.asp

  7. #7
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Didn't some boat in rochester to toronto or something on that order fail?

  8. #8
    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    Originally posted by WNYresident
    Didn't some boat in rochester to toronto or something on that order fail?
    The Rochester Ferry is supposed to re-open this spring. Although the original company failed, they had very high ridership while open, and growing interest on both sides.

    That project was just not managed well at all by the operating company or by the Rochester / Toronto city govts.

  9. #9
    moonshine
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    Buffalo handles nearly $100 billion a year between the US and Canada over its transportation infrastructure....which should be leveraged into jobs and services for WNY but arent
    Yes, there is growth in the customs and international shipping industry in Buffalo. Unfortunately the growth has been spurred by federal mandates instead of free market activity. The exception is the growing amount of imports from Asia which are handled by international, national, and local carriers. Extending a light rail, replacing the skyway, or improving the buffalo port would do nothing to help these industries. International ocean shipments arrive in cities with oceanports and are deconsolidated onto trucks or trains for overland shipping.

    Buffalo should re-connect itself to other Lake Erie Cities
    Buffalo should re-connect itself with other Upstate communities
    Buffalo should re-connect itself with other Regional Centers
    It is, it is, and it is. Road, Rail, and Air service is available from Buffalo to any of these places. Again, how does a light rail provide something that Amtrak doesn't?

    Cities grow because they are centers: Cultural Centers, Business Centers of all Professionals, Entertainment Centers, etc. The more Buffalo is considered a Regional Center, the more jobs will be attracted to us improving our lives and our communities.
    Being a regional center requires favorable business conditions. The "region" will never have favorable business conditions while the tax and spend mentality is in effect. More infrastructure means more taxation. You are putting the cart before the horse here. Improved infrastructure is a result of regional growth, not a cause.

    Businesses like people go where they can maximize revenue, minimize their costs, minimal risk and numerous natural assets that enhance their business ranging from the pool of skilled workers to quality of life.
    Taxation, outdated employment law, unions, and cost of energy are the primary risks to be minimized. Building light-rails, highways, or ferries does nothing to mitigate this risk.


    There are numerous examples of public and private partnerships that built cities like Dallas, Pheonix, Atlanta, Charlotte, etc. Those cities built the infrastructure and the business and the people flocked to the those cities
    Each of these cities has different reasons for success, but the key ingredient they all shared was low taxes and few regulations! Guys like Ted Turner reinvented Atlanta from a slum to a jewel. Charlotte was transformed by the tech boom. Private investment, not federal handouts, allowed these cities to prosper.

    Ive been to the heart of those anti-tax states and let me tell you something ... they are bigger pigs for federal and state funds than Buffalo!
    Let's hear some examples.

  10. #10
    Member speaker's Avatar
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    Moonshine--Ted Turner did not reinvent Atlanta--it's revival started a long time before that and came about because they did give tax breaks to companies interested. But they got it all back in taxes and more. They did not, as far as I know, give them money to come there. Atlanta had a good mayor who saw into the future. I lived there at the time. Ted Turner's was one of these companies. It takes a lot of broad and daring vision, backed by officials who are not corrupt, to do this.
    Every city who has survived the slump in the economy has built a colossal attraction--and the business and tourists came.
    I don't agree with what you have to say at all.

  11. #11
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Only reason I think some of these silver bullet ideas come up is that the developers want to profit from them without reguards if the community does.

  12. #12
    moonshine
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    Speaker-

    No doubt I'm probably wrong on all of the details. Been wrong before and it won't be the last time, but you did confirm the core of what I was saying:

    Moonshine: Guys like Ted Turner reinvented Atlanta from a slum to a jewel
    speaker: Ted Turner's was one of these companies
    I'd love to hear more details about Atlanta's revitalization.

  13. #13
    Member SolarEclipse's Avatar
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    Maybe this is a dumb question, but why is this in the Events topic?

  14. #14
    Member speaker's Avatar
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    Moonshine--I'm a native Buffalonian. But when I was there it never ceased to amaze me that it rose from an insular, railroad town to what it is today. And a large part of its population were just as outraged by the developments as some are here. But another group were gung ho and ready to tackle anything. They all were people who fiercely loved their city and basically had good ethics. I loved the place. I found, quite by a fluke, that when I started to delve into the history of its population, they loved it and liked me.This is all beside the point and the revitalization of Atlanta is another thread, but a good role model for Buffalo--so similar in a Yankee kind of way.

  15. #15
    Member speaker's Avatar
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    PS--I forgot to say. The one thing that would have been a crowning jewel for Atlanta, and I heard them say it many times, is if they had been on the water. They even considered a canal from the ocean, but it was so uphill.
    And we have the water right here and don't even see our best asset. The joining of a river and the lakes.
    They all would have contributed their back molars for our location.

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