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Thread: Town of Tonawanda eyes building new Brighton Arena

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    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Town of Tonawanda eyes building new Brighton Arena

    Town of Tonawanda eyes building new Brighton Arena

    There are 1,114 registered hockey players in the Town of Tonawanda but more than half – 668 – play outside the town, said Town of Tonawanda Councilman Daniel Crangle. "A lot of this is the condition of the rinks," he said.
    http://buffalonews.com/2018/03/11/to...a-hockey-rink/

    Seems like a lot of money to spend for 1100 kids.

    Comments

    Max Teller Give these boys and girls something positive to do with their time. If an extra hockey rink or two helps with hockey and open skating activities for kids, it's a no brainer. Set up a local equipment swap program too to help parents lower the cost of their kids participating in these sports. Around these parts, with hockey rinks, it seems that, if you build it, they will come. Just look at the success of the "Pepsi Center" (think it's Northtown Center now) and the new Harbor Place in Buffalo. I hope the town can find a way to make this happen!
    I don't know who this is but don't people think of the cost associated with ideas like this? If and extra rink or two helps why don't we do 5 instead? Right?

    Vicky Zeis Can we please have an indoor turf field instead for all year round?? Please!!!! Almost every single other sport is played on turf. Like Sportsplex or the Epic center. You would get thousands of kids using that space!
    This seems more like common sense. Larger audience to cater to.

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    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    The Town of Tonawanda could take the first step toward replacing the Brighton Arena hockey rink with a brand-new, world-class rink when the board votes Monday night on a $400,000 proposal to hire an architectural firm to design the project.
    Wow....$400,000 to design the project that might never be. Would be bad to go look at other newer "government ran" hockey rinks and just say build us that? I'm assuming as long hockey is played the same at each arena ice is ice. Right? You could put the $400,000 into building materials.

    We could assume any newer build is following code, basic hockey regulations and has ongoing running cost.

    Councilman Daniel Crangle said the town's two rinks, Brighton Arena and Lincoln Arena, are each about 60 years old.
    Vintage property. Why would you want to change the charm of the buildings?

    He said the Department of Youth, Parks and Recreation would like to demolish Brighton Pool and its wading pool and build a regulation ice rink with concessions, locker rooms, shower facilities and seating areas next to Brighton Arena. Demolition of the existing arena is currently not part of the plan, according to Crangle, who said they are still investigating how to utilize the two adjacent arenas if a new rink is built.
    I read that and I see DOLLAR signs. I also see patronage jobs for friends and family. What would be wrong with using what's there until it's unusable and getting out of the rink business? Let people who want to play hockey go to privately owned rinks. IF there's a need a private company can build a rink.

    He said the cost to build a new Brighton Arena will be borne by taxpayers and the town would need to bond $8 million for the project.
    9 million over how many years? I bet there is a junk of interest over that time.

    "There's no state funding, but we will be seeking funding from state leaders to offset the cost," said Crangle.
    If this is true get all the money upfront and accounted for. NO bs and say it's on the way let us get the project started. Get it deposited in the bank.

    Crangle said one reason Brighton was chosen for the new rink over Lincoln Arena was its proximity to the I-290, which will allow the town to sell the naming rights to the arena. He said they already have received several offers. A traffic study done in 2013 found that 107,000 cars drive by, east and west, every day.
    Why can't the sell naming right to the current rink?

    Nine months ago hundreds of hockey players, coaches and families made their plea to the board to update town hockey facilities. They told the board that they were taking their children to newer facilities, such as the Northtown Center at Amherst. Organizations are paying ten of thousands of dollars to rent ice time at places such as Hyde Park Arena in Niagara Falls, rather than playing in an outdated arena in their own backyard, said Crangle.
    Exactly how many are hundreds and exactly how many use the current rink. Why do I ask this? To see if there is any justification with spending millions of dollars of people's hard earn cash and paying interest on it for a very long time.

    Was it 1100 actual hockey players with 2 parents each, grand parents and 1 couch per possible team? Before you know it you have 100's of people pushing to spend other people's money so they don't have to go to Northtown Center.

    Ten's of thousands of dollars? Why should property owners in Tonawanda off set the cost of playing hockey?
    There are 1,114 registered hockey players in the Town of Tonawanda, said Crangle, but more than half – 668 – play outside the town.
    So what? Why should 1100 hockey players have the property owners cover the building cost and ongoing running cost?

    "A lot of this is the condition of the rinks," said Crangle. "They are playing in regulation-sized, newer rinks that are upgraded and we haven't upgraded our rinks. They have to go outside the town for federation hockey games."
    So? What is wrong with that?


    He said Brighton is only open five months a year, but with a new arena they could extend the ice time to 10 months a year and could rent out the ice to local organizations. In the two months of down time, in June and July, the arena could be used for roller skating, inline hockey, volleyball and other sports as well as for camps, clinics and birthday parties.
    But other rinks are doing that. Why pull that business away from them or actual privately owned rinks?

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    While hockey is still popular with a lot of different age groups, Tonawanda might find itself like casino owners who built only to find they’re late to the party and the demand has been largely met. And don’t get rid of the pool just to build a hockey rink. Amherst tore out the Audubon pool to build the Northtown center and it left the town with cruddy public pools. I live in Amherst but paid the nonresident fee to take my kids to Brighton pool because it was better than Amherst’s leftovers. Hockey might be popular but no way do more people play hockey than swim in the public pools. You’re spending a bundle to build a facility that appeals to only the few. But around here they’re the few with all the clout. Case in point, the hockey people bringing in out of town lawyers to sue to prevent a public referendum on whether to build the Northtiwn Center.

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    Not considering O&M, just capital cost. $8M and let's add about another $8M for interest. $16M. Now the rink gets used for 50 years. That's about $320K/yr. What does ice time cost? Lets ball park about $200/hr. So they'd have to rent the rink for about 1600 hrs, roughly 38 hrs / wk? Is that a realistic rental goal? Daytime hours are probably kind of low (kids are in school, people working). So peak rental times are like 3-11 or so, weekdays and like 18 hrs/day on weekends. So it seems the operation easily could get close to break even given an available operation time of roughly 76 hours / wk. O&M is probably not too high and concessions will bring in additional revenue. I'd want to see what the other rentals look like (if they are booked up or not), but it's possible that the operation would make money for the taxpayers so why would you oppose that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    Seems like a lot of money to spend for 1100 kids.
    Kids are attached to parents. Parents and Kids are families and building out town features that attract and retain families is the name of the game in a region with stagnant population gains outside of refugees.


    The thing, for me at least, that mucks up the who plan is the golf dome. I think towns like Tonawanda need to learn from Amherst and build more than a rink. This location does have a prime and is right off the exit.

    Why not partner with a hotel operator to build a smaller hotel that incorporated into the site? You might be able to upgrade hotel options for the area if you and pitch a chain with direct access to a complex that will get out of town visitors for many weekends a year. Why not allocate space a small medical office building also on site? Could focus on sports medicine as tenants. Again, a built in book of business.

    The town would not have to build either of these add-ons. They just could plan for them and design the rink complex to accept these things. In turn you could have these items all work together and drive revenue over multiple channels.

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    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    In the end I think towns/villages should let the private sector handle "entertainment" type items. If there is a need someone will step up to the plate. You just end up making small political havens that feed off the property owners. I get what your saying about have "things" for families but we have had "things" in the area for years. People are still leaving "things" or not. I know I'm wrong. It is all my imagination that our taxes are basically the highest in the nation and we really have a strong population growth. We have been attracting business, the best and the brightest and the hardest working people for the last 40 years. I sort of see where "Jennifer" is coming from just not from the extreme they do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    In the end I think towns/villages should let the private sector handle "entertainment" type items. If there is a need someone will step up to the plate. You just end up making small political havens that feed off the property owners. I get what your saying about have "things" for families but we have had "things" in the area for years. People are still leaving "things" or not. I know I'm wrong. It is all my imagination that our taxes are basically the highest in the nation and we really have a strong population growth. We have been attracting business, the best and the brightest and the hardest working people for the last 40 years. I sort of see where "Jennifer" is coming from just not from the extreme they do.

    Hockey rinks are not entertainment items. They clearly fall into the 'Parks and Recreation' aspects of the town which is a core service. I hear you on high taxes but cutting core services is not the way to solve that problem IMHO.

    I do wonder if there is a better location for this. Looking at Google Maps there is a massive former BJs warehouse in the Youngman Plaza, currently occupied by Frightworld. The other anchors are Tops, Family Dollar and Big Lots and a sea of parking... Not the best collection of businesses. The only good name there is Gander Mt. I wonder why this plaza wasn't considered. Based on the businesses there, I think the plaza owner might be open to some sort of public/private partnership that could increase the value of the whole area. Moving the hockey complex there would allow for the Town to keep the pools open and possibly convert the current Brighton Arena to some sort of indoor facility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    Hockey rinks are not entertainment items. They clearly fall into the 'Parks and Recreation' aspects of the town which is a core service. I hear you on high taxes but cutting core services is not the way to solve that problem IMHO.

    I do wonder if there is a better location for this. Looking at Google Maps there is a massive former BJs warehouse in the Youngman Plaza, currently occupied by Frightworld. The other anchors are Tops, Family Dollar and Big Lots and a sea of parking... Not the best collection of businesses. The only good name there is Gander Mt. I wonder why this plaza wasn't considered. Based on the businesses there, I think the plaza owner might be open to some sort of public/private partnership that could increase the value of the whole area. Moving the hockey complex there would allow for the Town to keep the pools open and possibly convert the current Brighton Arena to some sort of indoor facility.

    Towns should not be in the hockey rink business, too much expense for too few users. Also agree that hockey is the in thing but will change sometime down the road when parents realize that little Johnny may be the best in his class but will never be in the NHL. Towns built tennis courts back in the day, not as popular now but can be re purposed easily, hockey rinks, not so much. If there is a true demand, I’m sure a Private developer would be eager to build, but like was said earlier, they probably realize that they’re late to the game

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Roman View Post
    Towns should not be in the hockey rink business, too much expense for too few users. Also agree that hockey is the in thing but will change sometime down the road when parents realize that little Johnny may be the best in his class but will never be in the NHL. Towns built tennis courts back in the day, not as popular now but can be re purposed easily, hockey rinks, not so much. If there is a true demand, I’m sure a Private developer would be eager to build, but like was said earlier, they probably realize that they’re late to the game
    The same can be said for golf, senior centers and libraries. I think you need to consider the other side of your view. If you stop providing services that people want they stop wanting to live in the town. In your plan are you going to give rebates to people or tax deductions each and every time your privatize a service?

    If the towns came up with a formula on cost/return and then put every service up to that standard...I would think that would be beneficial. Everything from golf courses and hockey rinks to senior centers and libraries would be needed to be measured for me. But that's not going to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    The same can be said for golf, senior centers and libraries. I think you need to consider the other side of your view. If you stop providing services that people want they stop wanting to live in the town. In your plan are you going to give rebates to people or tax deductions each and every time your privatize a service?

    If the towns came up with a formula on cost/return and then put every service up to that standard...I would think that would be beneficial. Everything from golf courses and hockey rinks to senior centers and libraries would be needed to be measured for me. But that's not going to happen.
    I agree that people want some services, but I think i would rather live in a town that had lower taxes than one that wants to build and spend money on ice rinks and golf courses which is a business I don’t think the town should be involved in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Roman View Post
    I agree that people want some services, but I think i would rather live in a town that had lower taxes than one that wants to build and spend money on ice rinks and golf courses which is a business I don’t think the town should be involved in.

    What about senior centers and libraries? I think everyone wants to live in a town with lower taxes but once you start cutting things, those who have services cut are going to want other services they don't like cut as well. That's just human nature. Nobody wants the things that are important to them to be cut and nobody wants to pay for things they don't use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    What about senior centers and libraries? I think everyone wants to live in a town with lower taxes but once you start cutting things, those who have services cut are going to want other services they don't like cut as well. That's just human nature. Nobody wants the things that are important to them to be cut and nobody wants to pay for things they don't use.

    Those two examples are services that aren’t provided by the private sector. I don’t use the library, but whenever I drive by the one closest to my house the lot is always pretty full as is the senior center. Golf courses are obviously seasonal and I think the expenses that come with a hockey rink are just too much for a town to absorb.

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    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    The same can be said for golf, senior centers and libraries. I think you need to consider the other side of your view. If you stop providing services that people want they stop wanting to live in the town. In your plan are you going to give rebates to people or tax deductions each and every time your privatize a service?

    If the towns came up with a formula on cost/return and then put every service up to that standard...I would think that would be beneficial. Everything from golf courses and hockey rinks to senior centers and libraries would be needed to be measured for me. But that's not going to happen.

    Funny you mention golf, senior centers and libraries...Lets throw in recreation centers....


    Dan help me out with this...

    Does Cheektowaga have:

    A senior center?

    A hockey rink?

    Libraries?

    A golf course?

    A park?


    And the final question. Yes or no, have we lost population over the last 30 years even though we have these things?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Roman View Post
    Those two examples are services that aren’t provided by the private sector. I don’t use the library, but whenever I drive by the one closest to my house the lot is always pretty full as is the senior center. Golf courses are obviously seasonal and I think the expenses that come with a hockey rink are just too much for a town to absorb.

    Access to books is absolutely provided in the private sector. It's called Barnes and Noble (purchase) or Amazon (purchase/rent). What you can't find in books can be supplemented by Google and Wikipedia. All you need is to fork some money out of your own pocket to either purchase the books or rent via a subscription or pay for internet access. As for Senior Centers, your take that they are always busy is anecdotal. Do you have a study on usage between the Senior Center and the Hockey Rink? I've been to this particular rink about 5 times in the last 15 years and it's been packed each time. Anecdotal on my end as well.

    I think your personal bias here is obvious. But if the majority of the town that you live in agrees with you...so be it. Just be prepared to see families leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    Access to books is absolutely provided in the private sector. It's called Barnes and Noble (purchase) or Amazon (purchase/rent). What you can't find in books can be supplemented by Google and Wikipedia. All you need is to fork some money out of your own pocket to either purchase the books or rent via a subscription or pay for internet access. As for Senior Centers, your take that they are always busy is anecdotal. Do you have a study on usage between the Senior Center and the Hockey Rink? I've been to this particular rink about 5 times in the last 15 years and it's been packed each time. Anecdotal on my end as well.

    I think your personal bias here is obvious. But if the majority of the town that you live in agrees with you...so be it. Just be prepared to see families leave.

    We have all that **** and they already left

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