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Thread: Collins questions Fantasy Island request

  1. #31
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    Fantasy Island should have to play by the rules just like any mom/pop business in the county.

    They should pay sales tax. Period. Why should we always live in fear of someone running away because we say NO to a handout?

    We're better than that. Do you really think Martins is going to shut down because we wouldn't play their little game?

    I highly doubt it. If they do, well, good riddance to them. Fantasy Island has changed hands many times. I'm sure someone would buy the park.
    http://www.buffaloreuse.org/~kool aid free zone~

  2. #32
    Member bornandraised's Avatar
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    I think Collins just wants to review this request from Fantasy Island as it may have been the 1st one to cross his desk. Kind of how Satish hand signed all the checks when it first took office.

    I think companies in WNY 'automatically' ask for incentives on all expenditures, and reviewing requests for real need is a good idea. Many WNY companies are thinking if everyone else is getting a handout, why shouldn't I.

    It will take some time to right this ship in this area and clarify the process, before companies with real need can be identified in an more accurate manner.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornandraised
    I think Collins just wants to review this request from Fantasy Island as it may have been the 1st one to cross his desk. Kind of how Satish hand signed all the checks when it first took office.

    I think companies in WNY 'automatically' ask for incentives on all expenditures, and reviewing requests for real need is a good idea. Many WNY companies are thinking if everyone else is getting a handout, why shouldn't I.

    It will take some time to right this ship in this area and clarify the process, before companies with real need can be identified in an more accurate manner.
    Well said.
    http://www.buffaloreuse.org/~kool aid free zone~

  4. #34
    Member bornandraised's Avatar
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    Fantasy Island tax breaks approved

    The tax breaks were approved 12-1, over Collins objections. Looks like the 'rubber stamp' on tax break requests prevailed. We have to stop doing what we have been doing just because it was done in the past. Change needs to be embraced.

    http://www.buffalonews.com/145/story/274326.html

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornandraised
    The tax breaks were approved 12-1, over Collins objections. Looks like the 'rubber stamp' on tax break requests prevailed. We have to stop doing what we have been doing just because it was done in the past. Change needs to be embraced.

    http://www.buffalonews.com/145/story/274326.html

    Oh well.... Less tax revenue for the wealthy and put on the burdon of the poor. We need a Robinhood! That is it.... I think those numbers they gave for attendance might be a wee stretching it a bit... I alwasy thought of Martins Fantasy Island as a local only small amusement park. I gues they are competeing with Walt Disney.....

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornandraised
    The tax breaks were approved 12-1, over Collins objections. Looks like the 'rubber stamp' on tax break requests prevailed. We have to stop doing what we have been doing just because it was done in the past. Change needs to be embraced.

    http://www.buffalonews.com/145/story/274326.html
    I just wanted to higlight 3 key paragraphs from that news article. Some people are too lazy to actually open the link and will complain. So here goes:

    "The committee determined that it qualified for incentives as a tourist destination that draws 57 percent of its customers from outside Erie County, including 27 percent from Canada. The IDA also has granted incentives for two previous ride installation projects at Fantasy Island, setting a precedent for aiding that type of investment.

    Collins said past precedent shouldn’t be a guiding factor for a project that is not expected to create any new jobs at the park, which employs 605 workers, most of them part-time employees earning an average of $2,500 per season.

    “I don’t know where two wrongs in the past would justify these expenditures,” said Collins, who was the only board member to vote against the incentives. Board member Alfred Luhr abstained."

    *****
    I think Collins was 100% on the money in this case. Approving something because you have approved similar tax breaks in the past doesnt make any sense to me. Isnt the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?

  7. #37
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    I have never been a fan of Fantasy Island...didn't care for it as a kid, nor as an adult carting my kids there...but is does fill a need, so to speak...How many of us bemoan the loss of Crystal Beach? Would others bemoan the loss of Fantasy Island? Perhaps.....as such, I think that there are worse places that could have been afforded a cut......This ain't such a bad thing in the scheme of things.
    "The horror........The horror..........."

  8. #38
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    Good point Nicholas, on the other hand, I think the IDA needs to take a closer look at the financials on some of these deals. Would the purchase of these rides bankrupt the company or just eat into their profits? I think some of these abatements are given out like candy &/or treats instead of based on real need. In the meantime other companies are failing that could have used a boost. Why not give Fantasy Island a low cost loan instead of abatements? Still helps them and doesn't lower tax revenues.

  9. #39
    Member bornandraised's Avatar
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    Another BUF News Article

    Here is another article from todays BUF News again outlining how Collins did not want to approve the Fantasy Island tax break and how they are still given out almost 'automatically'.

    http://www.buffalonews.com/145/story/278226.html

    BUFFALO’S BUSINESS
    Collins wants tighter rules on tax breaks
    David Robinson
    Updated: 02/17/08 6:51 AM

    E rieCounty Executive Chris Collins was a lone wolf howling against tax breaks so that Martin’s Fantasy Island can add a pair of new rides to its Grand Island amusement park.

    But he doesn’t plan on being out on his own for long at the Erie County Industrial Development Agency.

    “I’m one vote, but I also make board appointments,” Collins said. “I think you’ll be seeing some appointments on this board.”

    While Collins has a say in just five of the 19 seats on the IDA board — not enough to pack it with allies who take a more skeptical look at handing out tax breaks — a few more friends could make it a little harder for local companies that want to hop on the public dole.

    What angered Collins about the $74,000 sales tax break that Fantasy Island received was that, in his opinion, the company was going to install the new rides with or without the taxpayer- backed incentives.

    IDA officials call this the “but-for” test, and basically, what it does is ask the question: Would a company do a project if it didn’t get the incentives?

    Collins said the Fantasy Island project flunked that test and wouldn’t create any new jobs, which is why he opposed the tax breaks. “They bought the equipment without the sales tax exemption,” he said. “I call it a gift to a company that didn’t need the incentive.”

    But the subjective “but-for” test isn’t something the IDA considers when it decides whether a project qualifies for taxpayer aid. Instead of allowing for an injection of common sense — and in the worst case, politics — in the evaluation process, the IDA relies on a complex set of rules that is weighted heavily toward the type of business a company is in, with certain exceptions.

    Factory projects are typically in. Retail projects are generally out. Entertainment projects, like Fantasy Island, are sometimes in and sometimes out, depending on where they fall in the eligibility criteria.

    Lawrence Meckler, an IDA board member and the chairman of the Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority, brought the Fantasy Island tax breaks back up for discussion last week after they had been tabled a month earlier when Collins objected. Meckler supported the tax breaks because they were for a project that attracted tourists — and therefore money from outside Erie County — into the region.

    “It’s so, so important to get people from outside this community into this region,” Meckler said.

    Collins’ arguments fell on deaf ears, even among board members like Amherst Supervisor Satish Mohan, who have criticized the IDA for being too liberal in handing out tax breaks.

    Mohan has said too many local businesses look for tax breaks even though they are making good money and have no intention of leaving the Buffalo Niagara region. The area needs to break that cycle of entitlement, Mohan has said, yet he still voted for the Fantasy Island tax breaks.

    So did board member Lynn Marinelli, the chairwoman of the Erie County Legislature, although she also sees “a need to tighten up our policies.”

    To that end, the IDA’s policy committee is reviewing the way the agency treats entertainment projects, said IDA Chairman Dennis Penman. But Penman, a Giambra administration appointee who generally looks favorably on IDA reforms, said it’s hard to break with precedent, especially when the agency had granted tax breaks on two previous Fantasy Island ride projects.

    “It’s tough to put the but-for test on it, because their feet are already in concrete on the ground,” Penman said.

    If Collins has his way, he just might start chipping away at that concrete.

    drobinson@buffnews.com

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas II
    How many of us bemoan the loss of Crystal Beach? Would others bemoan the loss of Fantasy Island? Perhaps.....as such, I think that there are worse places that could have been afforded a cut......This ain't such a bad thing in the scheme of things.
    Let's not lose sight of what happened here. The owner bought a new ride. The IDA said, for some reason, we are going to exempt you from paying sales tax on that ride.

    How does that make sense?

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornandraised
    Here is another article from todays BUF News again outlining how Collins did not want to approve the Fantasy Island tax break and how they are still given out almost 'automatically'.

    His argument may be a little off here. from Fantasy Island’s stand point there are tax breaks being given out to business so we might as well try too.

    Rather than play the IDA game how about coming up with something across the board for all business to get. Depending on criterion and a thorough investigation on the true reason for the request, award a certain percentage. In this case it is a couple of amusement attractions. It will require four ride operators and may be one additional ride technician because we were already tight with ride technicians. It is expected that the new rides will increase attendance by this much thus more gate revenue and more taxes paid…

    The argument they used about how it attracts tourist from out of state was far reaching though. I would not have accepted that at all. Fantasy Island is a couple steps up from a large carnival only permanent. Less than 100 acres pfft. I think James E Strates’ shows’ is larger in size.

    On the other hand I give Collins two thumbs up for taking a stand on the issue. He is doing what is needed. We need to support his efforts 100 percent and knock down the cronies who do not want to see it in the same light.

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