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Thread: Buffalo Schools Compared To The Suburbs

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    Member MAD BLUE BIRD's Avatar
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    Buffalo Schools Compared To The Suburbs

    I'm searching to find more understanding why Buffalo schools are failing compared to the suburbs. So say the BTF gets abolished and we're down to looking at the core problem of teaching the kids. Curriculum. Bannister stated that she wants her children to learn traditional math. What is the math curriculum being taught in the BS compared to what her children are learning in their new school ?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by MAD BLUE BIRD
    I'm searching to find more understanding why Buffalo schools are failing compared to the suburbs. So say the BTF gets abolished and we're down to looking at the core problem of teaching the kids. Curriculum. Bannister stated that she wants her children to learn traditional math. What is the math curriculum being taught in the BS compared to what her children are learning in their new school ?
    From helping my niece and nephew with their homework, (the go to Depew), I've discovered they are not learning traditional math as taught in the fifties and sixties. However, the math they are learning is better suited to today's practical applications of math.

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    Member Bannister's Avatar
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    The curriculum the BPS is using right now in the primary grades is called Investigations. There is a program on Youtube which describes how Investigations (and programs like it) teach math. Search Youtube for "Math: An Inconvenient Truth". Or maybe someone else can post a link.

    Investigations is heavy on teaching thinking skills and very, very light on direct instruction in strategies to solve problems. Students are no longer being taught how to add, subtract, multiply or divide using standard equations....unless the teacher goes off curriculum and supplements it herself.

    There are many superior teachers who are doing just that...going off curriculum to supplement, however it's time consuming (and wasteful imo) to teach math twice...once the way the Board wants you to and another the way you know your students need. Also, there are a lot of new teachers in the district that may not have the resources available to them (experience or materials) to pull together lessons that are not found in the curriculum.

    Most teachers I know believe the teaching strategies like the ones in Investigations are beneficial, but to teach them to the exclusion of traditional math is foolish.

    The pendulum will change on this issue. It will swing back to a more traditional way of teaching...just like it did with whole language (which was teaching reading without phonics). However, when the pendulum does swing back, my children would have been left with huge gaps in their knowledge.

    Investigations is an extreme way to teach math, and for my own children I prefer a more central approach. Teach the thinking skills, use hands on manipulatives, but also show them how to line up a long division problem.
    1 Corinthians 13:1 "If I speak in the languages of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."

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    Member Bannister's Avatar
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    Here's the link to the youtube I was talking about.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1qee-bTZI

    And here's some more background knowledge on the subject:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investi...ata,_and_Space

    (By the way, Buffalo is not using the revised version, we're still teaching the original version of this program!)
    1 Corinthians 13:1 "If I speak in the languages of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."

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    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bannister
    The curriculum the BPS is using right now in the primary grades is called Investigations. There is a program on Youtube which describes how Investigations (and programs like it) teach math. Search Youtube for "Math: An Inconvenient Truth". Or maybe someone else can post a link.

    Investigations is heavy on teaching thinking skills and very, very light on direct instruction in strategies to solve problems. Students are no longer being taught how to add, subtract, multiply or divide using standard equations....unless the teacher goes off curriculum and supplements it herself.

    There are many superior teachers who are doing just that...going off curriculum to supplement, however it's time consuming (and wasteful imo) to teach math twice...once the way the Board wants you to and another the way you know your students need. Also, there are a lot of new teachers in the district that may not have the resources available to them (experience or materials) to pull together lessons that are not found in the curriculum.

    Most teachers I know believe the teaching strategies like the ones in Investigations are beneficial, but to teach them to the exclusion of traditional math is foolish.

    The pendulum will change on this issue. It will swing back to a more traditional way of teaching...just like it did with whole language (which was teaching reading without phonics). However, when the pendulum does swing back, my children would have been left with huge gaps in their knowledge.

    Investigations is an extreme way to teach math, and for my own children I prefer a more central approach. Teach the thinking skills, use hands on manipulative, but also show them how to line up a long division problem.

    Weren't the standards of Investigations created by the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics ands simply adopted by the various school boards? The reason I ask is your post takes the tone that various school boards are telling teachers how to teach. When I spent 2 minutes looking into this topic, I found that the board was pushing curriculum created by teachers.

    The reason I ask is in all of your posts, you appear to me to rest 100% of the blame on either the school board or school administrators. I have yet to see any critique on the teacher. While self preservation is acceptable, it does weaken an argument from someone looking at the whole picture.

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    Member Bannister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS
    The reason I ask is your post takes the tone that various school boards are telling teachers how to teach.
    Actually that's the job of the school board. To approve curriculum and if they want to they can dictate teaching methods. I don't dispute that at all.

    I'm saying in our case, the overwhelming opinion of teachers, administrators, and many parents who know what's going on, is the Buffalo board made a bad choice in the current math curriculum.

    As far as telling us how to teach, sure they can do it, and they are. It's my opinion that they've taken a decent idea and gone to the extreme in this area too by now micromanaging the teacher's every move.

    For example, when the district comes in to supervise you teach reading, they actually expect you to have the teacher's manual in your hands while you do it. If you put it down for a minute to write on the chalkboard, they can cite you!

    But, I don't want to get off topic. The OP specifically asked about curriculum.

    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS
    The reason I ask is in all of your posts, you appear to me to rest 100% of the blame on either the school board or school administrators. I have yet to see any critique on the teacher. While self preservation is acceptable, it does weaken an argument from someone looking at the whole picture.
    In a previous post I did say I have met some bad teachers. Did you miss that post? As for administrators, there are some bad ones, but there are MANY awesome principals out there too. I have worked for a lot of them, they do amazing jobs.
    Last edited by Bannister; December 30th, 2007 at 01:23 PM.
    1 Corinthians 13:1 "If I speak in the languages of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."

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    Member MAD BLUE BIRD's Avatar
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    Do you teach the elementary grades and if so did you become frustrated with this method from your pupils struggling with it or your own children. I don't believe all that comes out of Youtube. When my kids were in the primary grades there was a chapter on finding the answers using estimating, but they also still relied on teaching the basics of memorizing the math facts. I personally am not against instilling lateral thinking along with the basics skills, and as usual, some kids will master it faster than others.

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    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bannister
    Actually that's the job of the school board. To approve curriculum and if they want to they can dictate teaching methods. I don't dispute that at all.

    I'm saying in our case, the overwhelming opinion of teachers, administrators, and many parents who know what's going on, is the Buffalo board made a bad choice in the current math curriculum.

    As far as telling us how to teach, sure they can do it, and they are. It's my opinion that they've taken a decent idea and gone to the extreme in this area too by now micromanaging the teacher's every move.

    For example, when the district comes in to supervise you teach reading, they actually expect you to have the teacher's manual in your hands while you do it. If you put it down for a minute to write on the chalkboard, they can cite you!

    But, I don't want to get off topic. The OP specifically asked about curriculum.



    In a previous post I did say I have met some bad teachers. Did you miss that post? As for administrators, there are some bad ones, but there are MANY awesome principals out there too. I have worked for a lot of them, they do amazing jobs.


    I don't disagree that it is a bad choice. You made a very good explanation as to why. But the bad choice was created by teachers. No? With this being the case, if teachers did not provide such a bad choice, the school board could not have implemented such a bad choice.

    My point was we all know the system is broke and it is broken at every turn. When a teacher will point out everything that is wrong minus teachers, it weakens their argument.

    Saying you have met some bad teachers is different then saying that teachers are a major part of the problem in the system and a key component in the fix. I just do not get that tone from you. I feel you look at teachers as a functional body with a couple of bad apples. If that is your opinion, fine. But I see the body of teachers, as a whole, as a major roadblock in the schools.

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    Member Bannister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAD BLUE BIRD
    Do you teach the elementary grades and if so did you become frustrated with this method from your pupils struggling with it or your own children. I don't believe all that comes out of Youtube. When my kids were in the primary grades there was a chapter on finding the answers using estimating, but they also still relied on teaching the basics of memorizing the math facts. I personally am not against instilling lateral thinking along with the basics skills, and as usual, some kids will master it faster than others.
    I do teach in the elementary grades and I was teaching the program a couple of years before my own kids started school.

    The frustration with my pupils struggling came first.

    I'm with you on instilling lateral thinking along with basic skills. However, all we have going on right now is the lateral thinking. Our curriculum does not address basic skills.
    Last edited by Bannister; December 30th, 2007 at 01:59 PM.
    1 Corinthians 13:1 "If I speak in the languages of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."

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    Member Bannister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS
    But the bad choice was created by teachers. No? With this being the case, if teachers did not provide such a bad choice, the school board could not have implemented such a bad choice.
    So you're saying if a group of teachers (somewhere in the US) hadn't created the bad curriculum, the Buffalo board couldn't have chosen it, therefore part (most?) of the problem rests with the teachers. I know you want me to point out the flaws with Buffalo teachers, but do you want me to be critical of the national ones as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS
    Saying you have met some bad teachers is different then saying that teachers are a major part of the problem in the system and a key component in the fix. I just do not get that tone from you. I feel you look at teachers as a functional body with a couple of bad apples. If that is your opinion, fine. But I see the body of teachers, as a whole, as a major roadblock in the schools.
    That's exactly what I think, the majority of teachers in this district are doing a great job. You seem to believe most teachers are bad but there might be a few shining stars in the lot. We will agree to disagree.

    As far as weakening my argument, I am simply stating how I see it from my vantage point. I think the public gets one view from the media, they don't always see what it looks like from in here.
    1 Corinthians 13:1 "If I speak in the languages of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."

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    "But I see the body of teachers, as a whole, as a major roadblock in the schools."

    No you don't lefty. You don't the see whole of teachers as a major roadblock, you see the teacher's union as *the only* roadblock. Never once do you acknowledge that parental education levels have *anything* to do with the problem. Never once do you concede that the assessment techniques are flawed. Not once do you assail a school outside of Buffalo for doing crappy work even though they have *many* resources at their disposal.

    To top it all off, you almost never give credit that Buffalo's elite are performing at a level comparable to high-end private schools. Give it a rest. You myopically reiterate your dogma of "END THE UNIONS END THE UNIONS START THE CHARTERS..BLAH BLAH BLAH" and then somehow try to persuade individuals to believe that you've considered the issue in it's *entirety*?? If you want me to believe that then the BS should come at the start of your screen name.

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    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genoobie
    "But I see the body of teachers, as a whole, as a major roadblock in the schools."

    No you don't lefty. You don't the see whole of teachers as a major roadblock, you see the teacher's union as *the only* roadblock. Never once do you acknowledge that parental education levels have *anything* to do with the problem. Never once do you concede that the assessment techniques are flawed. Not once do you assail a school outside of Buffalo for doing crappy work even though they have *many* resources at their disposal.


    The whole of teachers = the teachers union. I just stated it was not just the teachers. READ MY POST.

    To top it all off, you almost never give credit that Buffalo's elite are performing at a level comparable to high-end private schools. Give it a rest. You myopically reiterate your dogma of "END THE UNIONS END THE UNIONS START THE CHARTERS..BLAH BLAH BLAH" and then somehow try to persuade individuals to believe that you've considered the issue in it's *entirety*?? If you want me to believe that then the BS should come at the start of your screen name.

    The Buffalo elite are performing at that level because they can select who goes there! IMO it has very little to do with the school but the selection of the kids!

    People who brag about CH look like morons. Take any group of qualified teachers, give them a classroom with only performing and smart kids and you will get the same result.

    Here is an idea, sort EVERY kid in the school system. Put the lowest of the low in a rubber room. Put the average kids in a traditional school and continue to put the best of the best in places like CH. After all, what CH is..IS THE TIP OF THIS ICEBERG.

    Even a teacher here said that their performance changes based on the school they work in. You are the fool that thinks the teacher makes 100% the difference.


    Oh I would not be such a fan of Charter Schools if the principles of charters were applied to the public schools. Those being NO TENURE and under performing schools are closed or loose funding. The reason I, as well as many others, are a fan of the charter system is it potentially put power back in the hands of the PARENT and TAXPAYER not the Union Rep or politician.

    I know that I am never going to persuade you, your head is so far up your pompous ass, you and I will never agree.

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    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bannister
    So you're saying if a group of teachers (somewhere in the US) hadn't created the bad curriculum, the Buffalo board couldn't have chosen it, therefore part (most?) of the problem rests with the teachers. I know you want me to point out the flaws with Buffalo teachers, but do you want me to be critical of the national ones as well?

    My point was I agree 100% with you that the system is bad. You know why and have explained it clearly. However, how did this system come into play? From my view, the National Assoc of Math Teachers or whatever the group is advised this is the way it should be and the school boards went along.
    If the system is so bad, why is this group still saying it is good? If this group came out and said it was a mistake, I feel it could be corrected. That was my point
    .

    That's exactly what I think, the majority of teachers in this district are doing a great job. You seem to believe most teachers are bad but there might be a few shining stars in the lot. We will agree to disagree.

    I think there are a few shining stars and an equal number of rotten apples and everyone else is somewhere in between. That is the numbers in EVERY profession. There is nothing to make me think teaching, as a profession, is going to have different percentages.


    As far as weakening my argument, I am simply stating how I see it from my vantage point. I think the public gets one view from the media, they don't always see what it looks like from in here.
    I agree but your voice is Phil. Not the best PR person if you ask me.

    When was the last time Phil went to the public to actually talk about the kids? It appears to me that every teacher says they are focused on the kids and Phil is to be the unified voice of those teachers.

    The view in the media is based on what is being discussed. Very little, IMO, is about the actual day to day process of teaching kids.

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    Member MAD BLUE BIRD's Avatar
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    Never once do you concede that the assessment techniques are flawed.
    explain to me the failures of assessment in the BPS and what options are available after the assessments are completed.

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    Member Bannister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS
    I agree but your voice is Phil. Not the best PR person if you ask me.

    When was the last time Phil went to the public to actually talk about the kids? It appears to me that every teacher says they are focused on the kids and Phil is to be the unified voice of those teachers.

    The view in the media is based on what is being discussed. Very little, IMO, is about the actual day to day process of teaching kids.
    Ok, get ready for it...here it comes...( )

    I agree with you that Phil is not the best spokesman for us.

    There is something he did not too long ago that I found really irritating. When Williams got mad at Phil and told him he was going to "take him outside and kick his a**" Phil is the one who leaked that story to the press. At a meeting in Kleinhan's, he gloatingly told the story. I found repeating that story inflammatory and unnecessary to be repeated in the press.

    However, Williams continues to use a very confrontational, degrading mannar when addressing Phil and by extension when addressing us. Williams' rhetoric is ruining the morale of teachers and Phil is helping him by repeating every ridiculous word he says. At some point I think to myself, "did I really need to know this?"

    Some parts of negotiations should stay behind closed doors. If people lose their tempers and it gets repeated it just fosters the "us vs. them" mentality that has built up in the district.

    I'm sooo tired of it. That's why I have hope with the new board. Some of them seem to be recognizing this.

    I've spent most of this post talking about Phil and Williams and not the students. Some people might jump right to the conclusion that "I'm not thinking of the kids." That's where I say the body of teachers does not equal the teacher's union. The body of teachers, are in the trenches every day doing their jobs (the shining stars and the decent ones anyway), despite the nonsense, praying that the "powers that be" at the top will sort this mess out sooner rather than later.
    Last edited by Bannister; December 30th, 2007 at 02:44 PM.
    1 Corinthians 13:1 "If I speak in the languages of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."

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