Your tax dollars at work

[Night Owl]

ahhh.. just STOP COLLECTING SO MUCH MONEY.

You said that all in caps like I was the tax man knocking.



Taxes are not going to stop, whether or not we like it we're still going to have to pay them and they are still going to go into programs like the BERC. When I said this is what our tax dollars should go for, I wasn't talking about eternity. Being accepted for a BERC grant to help a business isn't a lifelong comittment to support that company. A grant/loan from the BERC is a one time thing not a welfare program with a thousand people capable of working.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm all for an organization that looks out for the interests of business and the taxpayers.

But not THIS business. And not with CASH handouts of taxpayer money!

If a business isn't able to borrow money on the very mature and established business credit market, it's probably because the people who lend money HAVE NO FAITH THAT THAT BUSINESS WILL EVER BE SUCCESSFULL!!

So we are giving tax money (and a lot of it) to the hippie radish and cucumber crowd...

A hundred thousand here, a hundred thousand there, and all of a sudden you've got a giant deficit and a control board.

Night Owl, you really have to learn how to say NO, no matter how warm and fuzzy you find the cause to be. We may really like our bong-smoking food co-op people with Berkenstock sandals and our librarians on every corner, but obviously there just ain't the money for such folly anymore.

At what point will we really understand that?

[WNYresident]

Curm? What makes you think it's the hippie crowd in this co-op?

We are stereo typing just because it's a co-op?

But all in all curm makes a valid point. If the business shows a success record why not go to the bank and get the money. Or loan is but have a strict you pay it on time like everyone else.

Wasn't there a group in the paper later that was supposed to be lending small businesses money? THe article mentioned how little of the money was given away and that there was a fact most wasn't paid back. Plus I think they mentioned what was the administration cost of this little project. All in all it was wasted money.

[Night Owl]

I guess that's my cue to bail from this thread.

[WNYresident]

I see no cue... you can continue like the rest of us.

[Night Owl]

At what point will we really understand that?

I realize this thread is no place for a disagreeing party.

[Curmudgeon]

Curm? What makes you think it's the hippie crowd in this co-op?

..By walking by the co-op and seeing all the hippies inside...

Hippie might be an antiquated term. I think we all know the particular demographic I'm talking about. If anyone doesn't, I'll be glad to identify that demographic in greater detail upon request.

I realize this thread is no place for a disagreeing party.

You can disagree all you like! If you're having trouble expressing convincing arguments that support your opinion on a particular topic, it just might be the case that you may not be correct.

That's the essence of public debate.

That's the whole purpose of legistatures and parliaments: representatives get together and discuss issues. Then the elected body hears all sides, chooses who they agree with, and then vote for the opinion they think is right.

[Night Owl]

You can disagree all you like! If you're having trouble expressing convincing arguments that support your opinion on a particular topic, it just might be the case that you may not be correct.

I know all I have written in this thread to be true about the BERC; that they are not a group that doles tax dollars to any business looking for a hand out. There is a process and a back ground check that goes according to the grant/loan. A business that is looking like it would unsuccessful would probably not qualify. A point you have failed to see.

Anyways, It's getting to be a mute point because the essence of public debate is turning into something like this... quote: "it's probably because the people who lend money HAVE NO FAITH THAT THAT BUSINESS WILL EVER BE SUCCESSFULL!!"

All caps usually means shouting and that is what I would like to avoid.

[Curmudgeon]

I know all I have written in this thread to be true about the BERC; that they are not a group that doles tax dollars to any business looking for a hand out. There is a process and a back ground check that goes according to the grant/loan.

And just exactly how do you know that? Just because somebody put a process in place doesn't nessessarily mean the process will lead to correct decision making. I'd certianly like to know who was responsible for the process of giving $300,000 of tax money to a food co-op. I have a funny feeling if there was a scandal at the BERC, We'd have a hard time determining just who was responsible for the process...

I'll come out and say it right now: any organization that gives $300,000 of tax money to a food co-op needs an immediate management change. Perhaps the Control Board should oversee this wayward tax leak as well...

[Night Owl]

I'll come out and say it right now: any organization that gives $300,000 of tax money to a food co-op needs an immediate management change.

The BERC doesn't just give aid to food co-ops, they put into helping 'small business' barber shops, shoe stores, toy stores, mom & po grocery shops... the list is enless. This is what helps the private sector to stay in our areas.

You said a few posts back "I'm all for an organization that looks out for the interests of business and the taxpayers. "

Well, these businesses are giving back not only by repaying the loan, they are still paying the same taxes as anyone else.

I think you have a few wires crossed to where you really can't understand what I have been saying all aong, or maybe you just like reading my words so much (like someone who likes the sound of another's voice) that you continue to get me to reply.

Or maybe you just don't want to understand because this way of thinking is different than yours.

What, may I ask do you have against food co-ops?
What do you have against small businesses trying to succeed?
What do you have against people working for themselves?
What do you have against anyone getting any help to may their way in this world?

[Curmudgeon]

What, may I ask do you have against food co-ops?

There already exists in WNY a very healthy private sector food distribution system. Why taxpayer money should subsidize an unprofitable alternate small-scale distributor (co-op) is beyond me.

Well, these businesses are giving back not only by repaying the loan, they are still paying the same taxes as anyone else.

The co-op received a grant (free money) and will probably never repay the loan. This information was in the article above...

I think you have a few wires crossed to where you really can't understand what I have been saying all aong, or maybe you just like reading my words so much (like someone who likes the sound of another's voice) that you continue to get me to reply.

Yes, you are correct, I really can't understand what you are saying. It's long on good intentions and short on accountability and facts. I'd think that as a taxpayer you'd ask for a little more than "those BERC must know what their doing, after all they work there".

What do you have against small businesses trying to succeed?
What do you have against people working for themselves?
What do you have against anyone getting any help to may their way in this world?

I think I'm just about the only one here who looks out for small business. Ask any business owner if he's happy shelling out his taxes to support the "food co-op". I think your definition of "help" is "taxpayer money".

...And that's why we have a Control Board.

[leets]

I thought I would open this one up again since the COOP's building is well along in construction.

It seems to me that Crum's comments have more to do with his unreasonable dislike of the store's demographic than the money being spent.

Looking at this reasonably you would find that it is a very good use of money.

1. There is no proof at all that the money will not be repaid. In that case this argument is premature.

2. The Coop has a long and successfull track record in a quaint but marginal location. The new location will give it a prominent and convenient location in a very wealthy neighborhood with the type of eduacted and monied demographic which supports organic and health oriented food.

3. A currently empty lot will be filled in and the property tax of that land icreased as well as surrounding property.

4. A service greatly needed in Buffalo will be provided. This neighborhood is poorly served by supermarkets for the population and density of the area. Also this type of food is not commonly provided in standard area supermarkets. Organic food is a hugely growing trend and Buffalo is behind in providing it to the market.

5. The loan will create vastly more jobs per dollar than other government incentive programs such as the GM give away or the Bills and Sabers or even the Amherst IDA exploits. ( even if it is not paid back)

[Effigy]

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

These clowns rented some equipment from my business over a year ago and I'm still waiting to be paid. Luckily it was a rental and not a purchase, so I'm just out my profit and not the price of the goods. I'm about ready to place them with a collection agency. Whenever I answer the phone around here and hear the words BERC or BOSP (Office of Strategic Planning) I cringe.

[300miles]

$200,000.... that's like, what... one Giambra cousin sitting at his desk 15 hours a week playing solitaire? A complete wast of money.

At least with the co-op the city got a nice building out of it and some tofu burgers.

[LaNdReW]

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
Local government shouldn't be subsidizing a small retail business to the tune of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of dollars to create LOW-INCOME JOBS. That's just absurd.

I agree, but what about Wal-Mart getting tons of money from the state and the Feds, You Disagree with that don't you?

How about any type of corp. welfare? Is it ever acceptable?