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Thread: Ellicott Creek - work continues !

  1. #16
    Member concernedwnyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gshowell
    Tonight, at the town board meeting, we asked if the sewer was being built in the creek, floodplain, wetland, etc. We didn't get a clear answer, because...

    Even though the town had to grant permission (or maybe it was a vote of recognition or acceptance, I'm not sure) the DEC is the agency in charge.

    So, I guess we have to ask the DEC.
    No comment it just is not worth it
    Last edited by concernedwnyer; December 4th, 2007 at 12:06 AM.

  2. #17
    Member Foot Fungus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by gshowell

    Tonight, at the town board meeting, we asked if the sewer was being built in the creek, floodplain, wetland, etc. We didn't get a clear answer, because...

    Even though the town had to grant permission (or maybe it was a vote of recognition or acceptance, I'm not sure) the DEC is the agency in charge.

    So, I guess we have to ask the DEC.
    The Town is the designated lead agency and therefore has the final say on anything involved. They can say yes, they can say no. They just love to pass the buck.

    It's pretty funny how one member of this message board likes to say that the developers would know better than causing a problem the could impact many residents, yet they knew so much about the lay of the land that their bags on sticks fell down under the pressure of the water and soil barriers breached. Ummm...it's a creek...it has lot's of water during rains and snow melt...it always floods...(makes you wonder about the results of any "studies" done on the land to be used for lots).

    It's time for the "lead agency" to grow some stones and do what is right for the community, not the developer pals.

    I do like that fact that the developer's representative shows up at the meeting last night, just to "set the record straight" and no one asked him to be there. Hmmm...this has happened before.

    What's really sad about all this is that if it wasn't for residents bringing this to the forefront, the botched attempt at stopping sediment from entering the creek would have continued without notice and left as is. Kudos folks. It will be interesting to see where this goes.

    Originally Posted by Prince

    I don't know.... I think they would not survive the trip... They would be in an accident and not necessarily with the vehicle if you know what I mean...... On the up side there would be a trail of body parts so if the family wanted to put them back together again there is always that option.
    We know which parts he'd keep (probably in a jar next to the bed filled with dainty purple liquid, call them...Prince's Purple Pickles). Yum!

    4achange, don't mind him, he like to threaten. He's done it before, he'll do it again. No big deal.

    _____________________________________
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  3. #18

    Help, I Confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Foot Fungus
    The Town is the designated lead agency and therefore has the final say on anything involved. They can say yes, they can say no. They just love to pass the buck.
    I'm seriously confused. This is where the multiplicity of involved agencies creates a wall of confusion making it difficult to get to the heart of the matter.

    The Town's the Lead Agency.

    But, the Town Engineer said last night that “It’s a DEC issue at this point,”.

    A serious question. Can the Town, as Lead Agency, step in and say, "Stop"?

    Wetland concerns called a DEC matter
    By Michelle Kearns NEWS STAFF REPORTER
    Updated: 12/04/07 7:07 AM

    When residents spoke to the Lancaster Town Board on Monday about worries that pending new developments for hundreds of homes are too close to wetlands — one photo seemed to show flooding from rain submerging a separation between Ellicott Creek and a new trench for a sewer — the town engineer explained that the state Department of Environmental Conservation, not the town, is in charge for now.

    “It’s a DEC issue at this point,” said engineer Robert Harris. He said he did sympathize with people’s concerns. “People get impatient, and rightfully so.”

    Some talked about Cross Creek, a planned, unbuilt development of 264 houses, on Pleasant View Drive. A recent photo Harris displayed appeared to show a sewer trench merging with Ellicott Creek. Rules, Harris said, require a separation between creek and sewer.

    Cross Creek’s attorney, Peter Sorgi, said he wanted to verify the photo and understand where, and whether, it was on development property.

    “They’re coming asking us questions that we really can’t answer,” he said.

    Resident and regular meeting attendee Lee Chowaniec was one who talked about the potential problems with Cross Creek.

    “I don’t think developers . . . should be allowed to build on a wetland,” he said.

    Donna Lukowski, 43, shared that worry about a different project: Windsor Ridge South, a proposed development of about 295 houses near her family home on Brunck Road, where she grew up. The area used to be farmland, she said. Now that the area is being developed, her once-dry backyard fills with water.

    “I’ve inquired several times about the flood plain, and everybody just blew me off,” said Lukowski, who has been carefully following the gradual permitting process. Harris explained things were being analyzed as information comes in.

    After Lukowski spoke before the board, she stood in the back of the meeting room and elaborated. If plans change to allow more houses at a higher elevation, she feared more water would come her way.

    “I get it now,” she said of the water. “I can’t imagine what the effect would be of another 200 homes. . . . It’s saturated. My backyard is saturated. . . . I’m getting to the point where I’m thinking of getting a lawyer.”

    mkearns@buffnews.com

    By the way, this is a good article. In my OPINION it is fair and balanced. By that, I mean, she interviewed everyone (the Town, the Developer's Attorney, and the residents) and reported what they said.

  4. #19
    Member Foot Fungus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by gshowell

    I'm seriously confused. This is where the multiplicity of involved agencies creates a wall of confusion making it difficult to get to the heart of the matter.

    The Town's the Lead Agency.

    But, the Town Engineer said last night that “It’s a DEC issue at this point,”.

    A serious question. Can the Town, as Lead Agency, step in and say, "Stop"?
    If the Town isn't willing to act as such, they should not accept the designation of "lead agency".

    They have the authority to say yes or no, hence the designation.

    They've pulled the "out of our hands", "we didn't know" crap for a long time.

    From the News article

    “I’ve inquired several times about the flood plain, and everybody just blew me off,” said Lukowski, who has been carefully following the gradual permitting process. Harris explained things were being analyzed as information comes in.
    There's the rub. Analyzing "things" as information comes in. All information should be "in" and "analyzed" before a determination is made and a shovel touches the dirt.

    In the case of Cross Creek, has all "information" been provided?

    Isn't this what the SEQR process is for, determining the impacts of a project before approving or denying it? Unfortunately, most information in this process is provided by the developer and/or hired guns, many times challenged by residents and when the proper agencies are contacted, the information is corrected by an outside agency.

    Lead agency indeed.

    _____________________________________
    "I don't think it was luck" -Donna Stempniak, unopposed candidate for Lancaster Town Council on winning re-election.
    _____________________________________
    Help a WNY hospital win a new MRI machine: www.winanmri.com/
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  5. #20

    Thumbs down Lead Agency a Joke

    All information given to the Town was from the Public even the creek that runs 40 feet from my house DEC and Army corp had it labeled as a ditch. until I asked " Do you have to have flood insurance for a Ditch ....If not I want a refund" along with several other residence. They also had slate bottom creek located in the wrong place they had it positioned where it was located over 30 years ago. The wetlands designation was completed during the dryer months along with feild study! Never done during rainy times when ground is saturated.

    DEC and Army corps insist that the town has the responsibility of any flooding and drainage issues they are concerned with just the area designated as the wetland. Nothing as to the water that comes from the wetland or drainage issues. The town has negligently Failed in SEQR process along with allowing developers to do what they wish.

    Most of the Information was never question and even questions that were raised by board members and planning board were never answered!!!!


    Yes again the Town Board had nothing to say why was the permit held almost a month by the town Attorney before given to the clerk. And still they cannot get the number of homes correct.

    The town was told about floodplain and asked about designating a floodway!!! pictures were provided and they were even out at location during flooding.. They told me this is quite impressive and Mr Giza wanted to know where all the water was coming from and what caused it. The town was also told about the hired gun saying there was only 2-5% water on property and was questioned by the planning board. No answers were ever provided.

    The night of the Neg Dec the Board was asked about flooding and Drainage issues Mr. Sherwood stated that was taken care of. I must have missed something... I was at every meeting and no information was presented on how to handle the water coming off this land or have any Elevations been updated since the 60's. The only thing stated is there will be back yard drainage. **** They will instruct the water to go to one specific drain


    It can be seen on Brunck rd with any new build and how the water pools on sides of houses and in front yards. One location has 2 drains in yard and 20 feet away a swimming pool from rain water where it sits for days and never drys. I guess water goes where it wants to and usually travels where it been for years it's very difficult to reroute water as across the street the water has returned to its original location but larger and causes more problems than previously and you can visually see water draining from Bowen Square at its higher elevation than the pastures that were once at this location.


    Well 90% of the drains along the road in both directions drain in Slate Bottom Creek. So not only am I the lowest elevation the town drains half the water down the road to the creek next to my House.... Years ago a former highway Superintendant thought is was OK to reroute creeks, as it was next to my residence. Years later they didn't like all the wasted land across the street where the creek flows from Bowen so lets dig it up and try to move it where we want it... Then we can build on these lots that were usually under water. one home is built on a cement slab because of water.

    Then they build Bowen Square and at that time I visited with the town engineer and again expressed concern of flooding and drainage. Told not to worry..

    This was again revisited when windsor ridge was started again I was assured that water would not effect my property.

    Well here we are for Windsor Ridge South after a farce of a SEQR and many led to beleive that it was for phase 1 only and Mr.Keysa swinging the vote with his disertation of what he thought and how it should be worded (interesting) Since this same individual reclused himself previously because his brother was involved in Sale of property. ( ETHICS--- NOT IN LANCASTER)

    After it was in the paper for public notice I visited the DEC and asked about the floodplain and that houses were to be built within the floodplain. They objected and said there was not a floodplain. I pulled out my floodplain map and the flood elevation map and pointed out it indeed was within the floodplain. This also included several lots within the 100 and 500 year flood plan. I later received a call that I was correct and three more houses were pulled from plan. This area covered in the floodplain -floodway is also where they want to put a road and bridge.... I guess that won't be effected..... We'll raise the elevation so high and then try to flow water uphill... Where will that leave the residence on this end of Brunck Road.... Under Water !!!!!!!

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Lancaster wetlands
    All information given to the Town was from the Public even the creek that runs 40 feet from my house DEC and Army corp had it labeled as a ditch. until I asked " Do you have to have flood insurance for a Ditch ....If not I want a refund" along with several other residence. They also had slate bottom creek located in the wrong place they had it positioned where it was located over 30 years ago. The wetlands designation was completed during the dryer months along with feild study! Never done during rainy times when ground is saturated.
    Please excuse me for being a pain with the questions, but there's a lot I don't understand and the only way to learn is to ask.

    Is the "ditch" part of slate bottom creek?

    When you were told you needed to buy flood insurance, did they give you a reason why? And what was that reason?

    Thanks

  7. #22
    Member gorja's Avatar
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    I sent an email to megollwi@gw.dec.state.ny.us at 12:18 AM today asking about the Stony Rd wetland work that has been reportedly continued. Here's a copy of the response that I received. Take note. Nothing is mentioned that the "Stop Order" has been rescinded.


    megollwi@gw.dec.state.ny.us wrote @3:25pm today

    Thank you for your message. Last week a member of DEC's water staff observed a water quality violation resulting from inadequate erosion and sediment controls during project construction efforts at the Stony Rd. project location. A Stop Work Order" was issued by DEC to ensure that the developer addresses the problem before continuing the project.

    In order for the developer to start work again, DEC is requiring that the
    developer implement additional erosion and sediment controls at the site as well as revise their project's "Erosion and Sediment Control Plan" for approval by DEC. As for when work will begin again...it depends on how quickly the developer addresses DEC's requirements for additional erosion and sediment controls and an updated "Erosion & Sediment Control Plan." If corrections are addressed immediately and we approve their work, work can begin again shortly.

    As far as whether or not they will build a barrier -- that project detail will
    be the decision of the developer. The only requirement that we have is that they use approved erosion and sediment control practices that are properly installed and capable of controlling sediments to prevent water quality problems.

    We hope this update will be helpful to you.
    Thank you again for your message and have a nice day!

    Megan Gollwitzer
    DEC
    So why is all the excavating equipment in place at that site???

    Georgia L Schlager

  8. #23
    Member Foot Fungus's Avatar
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    That's interesting as the developer representative at the Town Board meeting last night said that there was no Stop Work Order issued.

    Sounds like someone's not tellin' da truth here.

    _____________________________________
    "I don't think it was luck" -Donna Stempniak, unopposed candidate for Lancaster Town Council on winning re-election.
    _____________________________________
    Help a WNY hospital win a new MRI machine: www.winanmri.com/
    A great benefit to a local community.

  9. #24
    Thanks gorga...

    A stop work order has been issued, we've obtained notification. I was waiting until I had the paperwork in my hand before I said anything, so I could report the correct information.

    It appears someone at last night's meeting was either misinformed, or....

  10. #25
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Quote Originally Posted by gshowell
    Thanks gorga...

    A stop work order has been issued, we've obtained notification. I was waiting until I had the paperwork in my hand before I said anything, so I could report the correct information.

    It appears someone at last night's meeting was either misinformed, or....
    Scan it and post it up. Let people know what they look like. Most people never saw an official stop order.

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident
    Scan it and post it up. Let people know what they look like. Most people never saw an official stop order.
    That was, and still is, the plan

  12. #27
    Member gorja's Avatar
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    A copy of the STOP WORK ORDER can be found in Lee Chowaniec's article.
    Wetlands under siege: Part II: Cross Creek project issued “stop work” order by DEC http://www.speakupwny.com/article_3530.shtml

    From Lee Chowaniec's article

    STOP WORK ORDER issued

    Tuesday morning, Schneggenburger received (certified mail) a copy of the “stop work” order. It was dated December 3, 2007 and addressed to Mr. Elliot Laskey, RJF Development Co.

    Notice of Violation and Stop Work Order
    Cross Creek Subdivision
    Lancaster, Erie County
    SPEDES General Permit GP-02-01
    Permit # NYRIOM981

    You are ordered to stop all earth disturbing activities at the above-mentioned site (with the exception of disturbances related to installing stormwater controls) until you are authorized by the Department to resume.

    On the 27th of November 2007, I conducted a stormwater inspection of the above-mentioned facility. I found that the sediment and erosion controls, that were installed, are inadequate in controlling the disturbed materials and preventing the degradation of Ellicott Creek’s water quality.

    The State Pollutant Discharge Elimination System (SPEDES) General Permit for Stormwater Discharges from Construction Activities (GP-02-01), hereafter referred to as the “permit”, does not authorize any person to cause or contribute a condition in contravention of any water quality standards that are contained in the Rules and Regulations of the State of New York, even if the permittee is in compliance with all other provisions of this permit.

    Part I.A. of the permit states that it shall be a violation of the permit and the Environmental Conservation Law (ECL) for any discharge authorized by this general permit to either cause or contribute to a violation of water quality standards as contained in Parts 700 through 705 of Title 6 of the Official Compilation of Codes, Rules and Regulations of the State of New York.

    From my observations, as a result of inadequate erosion and sediment controls, an increase in turbidity and settleable solids has occurred which is a violation of the ECL as well as the General Permit GP-02-01.

    Before the Department will authorize continuation of work at the site, the following conditions must be met:

    1) You must implement additional erosion and sediment controls to properly prevent and degradation of Ellicott Creek’s water quality.

    2) You must submit a revised “Erosion and Sediment Control Plan” including the details of the additional measures to the Department for approval.

    The degradation of Ellicott Creek’s water quality, as a result of inadequate erosion and sediment controls, is a violation of the ECL as well as the General Permit GP-02-01. Therefore, this matter is being referred to the Department’s legal staff for enforcement.


    Damianos T. Skaros
    Environmental Engineer (DEC)

    Georgia L Schlager

  13. #28
    Member concernedwnyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gshowell
    That was, and still is, the plan

    Wow!!! You, Fruit Cake, and the rest of the One of Five gang are probably out celebrating tonight! But you see a mis understanding on the town board's part. All is taken care of. I would go with a better zoom lens next time though.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by concernedwnyer

    Wow!!! You, Fruit Cake, and the rest of the One of Five gang are probably out celebrating tonight! But you see a mis understanding on the town board's part. All is taken care of. I would go with a better zoom lens next time though.
    I know you're a grown man, and you probably already know what I'm going to tell you. But, I'll say it anyway:

    When you continually, call people childish names (i.e. fruitcake), the only end result is that it makes you look, well, childish. You could give irrefutable proof that E does NOT = mc², but if you follow it up with "fruitcake", no one will listen.

    So, do a favor for all of us, and give it a break with the name-calling. Be the bigger man, and call the truce - others will follow.

  15. #30
    Member concernedwnyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therising
    I know you're a grown man, and you probably already know what I'm going to tell you. But, I'll say it anyway:

    When you continually, call people childish names (i.e. fruitcake), the only end result is that it makes you look, well, childish. You could give irrefutable proof that E does NOT = mc², but if you follow it up with "fruitcake", no one will listen.

    So, do a favor for all of us, and give it a break with the name-calling. Be the bigger man, and call the truce - others will follow.

    What me??? I am not the one with the user id as Foot Fungus...... I could think of much worst associations... Now that would be mean.

    The one in question likes to shoot out all kinds of claims that might not be true. The accuser needs to learn how to fact find.... Case in point... If the developer said there was no stop order given and a stop order was produced today then guess what. The developer was right.... Along comes Foot Fungus, personally if I had that user id Fruit cake would be better, and oh he must have been lying....... See where I am going with this....

    Ok, I could compromise... No more alternative reference names for the elitests... The One of Five gang remains though. Trade mark office is checking for already in use of that name.





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