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Thread: Federal agents raid 'Liberty Dollar'

  1. #1
    Member gonerail's Avatar
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    Talking Federal agents raid 'Liberty Dollar'

    Ah !! Big Brother at work again. Just intimidation as this harassment technique will be thrown out of court and the time and money it took to look tough will be more waste !!

    EVANSVILLE, Ind. - Federal agents raided the headquarters of a group that produces illegal currency and puts it in circulation, seizing gold, silver and two tons of copper coins featuring Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul.

    Agents also took records, computers and froze the bank accounts at the "Liberty Dollar" headquarters during the Thursday raid, Bernard von NotHaus, founder of the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act & Internal Revenue Code, said in a posting on the group's Web site.

    The organization, which is critical of the Federal Reserve, has repeatedly clashed with the federal government, which contends that the gold, silver and copper coins it produces are illegal. NORFED claims its Liberty Dollars are inflation free and can restore stability to financial markets by allowing commerce based on a currency that does not fluctuate in value like the U.S. dollar.

    "They're running scared right now and they had to do something," von NotHaus told The Associated Press Friday. "I'm volunteering to meet the agents and get arrested so we can thrash this out in court."

    Wendy Osborne, a spokeswoman for the FBI's Indianapolis office, declined to comment and referred all questions to the U.S. attorney's office for the Western District of North Carolina. Suellen Pierce, a spokeswoman for that office, also declined to comment.

    The raid comes eight months after von NotHaus filed a lawsuit in federal court in Evansville seeking a permanent injunction to stop the federal government from labeling the Liberty Dollar an illegal currency.

    The U.S. Mint issued a warning this year that the Liberty Dollar violated the Constitution and warned consumers against using them unsuspectingly.

    Paul's campaign said it had not authorized production of the Ron Paul dollars.

    "We were aware they existed, but we didn't have any affiliation with them," said Jesse Benton, a spokesman for Ron Paul's campaign. "He didn't ask our permission to make them."

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21836699/

  2. #2
    Member DelawareDistrict's Avatar
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    Indefensible and Reprehensible

    The path is clear
    Though no eyes can see
    The course laid down long before.
    And so with gods and men
    The sheep remain inside their pen,
    Though many times they've seen the way to leave.

  3. #3
    Member CSense's Avatar
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    This is disturbing! I don't understand how the feds could do this, I mean what about credit cards? Foreign money? If someone accepts a piece of turd for something then the government has nothing to do with it. Last time I checked, the barter system still exists.

    I am not a Paul supporter but this is ridiculous!

  4. #4
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    Indefensible and Reprehensible
    Why do you say that?

  5. #5
    Member DelawareDistrict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therising
    Why do you say that?
    Because there is nothing illegal being done, alternate (private currencies) have existed throughout the history of our country and free trade between private individuals is being violated. Not to mention the confiscation of private property!

    People holding liberty paper dollars or having unfulfilled orders for liberty dollars can follow this link to join a class action lawsuit against the government.
    The path is clear
    Though no eyes can see
    The course laid down long before.
    And so with gods and men
    The sheep remain inside their pen,
    Though many times they've seen the way to leave.

  6. #6
    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    anything like this that confuses people about real currency will be walking on thin ice with the feds.

    Is it currency or not? I think they tried to say it was not currency but a bartering system... yet they called it a dollar. And the whole "Liberty Dollar" marketing confused people about real US currency like the Walking Liberty Dollar.

  7. #7
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    I saw a real interesting story one time about a guy who claimed he was an artist, and he would create 20 dollar bills. He said they weren't counterfeit, because he would go into a store, and say "This is a drawing of a 20 dollar bill, I would like to trade it for $10 worth of goods."

    Since they looked like real bills, the store owners would usually accept them

  8. #8
    Member DelawareDistrict's Avatar
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    Confusing people? That sounds pretty lame, a person would have to have an incredibly low IQ, and even that doesn't justify denying private citizens the right to trade freely. Rights are not based on the lowest common denominator and shouldn't pander to stupidity.
    The path is clear
    Though no eyes can see
    The course laid down long before.
    And so with gods and men
    The sheep remain inside their pen,
    Though many times they've seen the way to leave.

  9. #9
    Member DelawareDistrict's Avatar
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    Trading liberty dollars is no more illegal than two farmers exchanging corn for milk.
    The path is clear
    Though no eyes can see
    The course laid down long before.
    And so with gods and men
    The sheep remain inside their pen,
    Though many times they've seen the way to leave.

  10. #10
    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelawareDistrict
    Confusing people? That sounds pretty lame, a person would have to have an incredibly low IQ, and even that doesn't justify denying private citizens the right to trade freely. Rights are not based on the lowest common denominator and shouldn't pander to stupidity.
    There are people in every population with low IQ's. However they are not "stupid".

    And in general, anything the messes with the US Dollar standard in this country is not going to survive. Whether you agree with that or not.

  11. #11
    Member DelawareDistrict's Avatar
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    Just to clarify, stupidity referred to the people willing to pander to the lowest common denominator, not the people with low IQs. You also failed to address the salient points. Liberty Dollars do not mess (whatever that means) with the US dollar standard. There is no claim that they replace the official currency of the United States.

    Also, the U.S. Mint has stated that the paper liberty dollars do not violate any laws.
    The path is clear
    Though no eyes can see
    The course laid down long before.
    And so with gods and men
    The sheep remain inside their pen,
    Though many times they've seen the way to leave.

  12. #12
    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelawareDistrict
    You also failed to address the salient points. Liberty Dollars do not mess (whatever that means) with the US dollar standard. There is no claim that they replace the official currency of the United States.

    Also, the U.S. Mint has stated that the paper liberty dollars do not violate any laws.
    OK. Then let's go to the US Mint directly to address those points :



    From http://www.usmint.gov/consumer/index...ction=HotItems

    "...Moreover, prosecutors with the Department of Justice have determined that the use of these gold and silver NORFED "Liberty Dollar" medallions as circulating money is a Federal crime.

    Consumers may find advertisements for these medallions confusing and should take note of several issues related to them.


    First, the advertisements refer to the product as "real money" and "currency." These medallions might look like real money because they—
    • Bear the inscriptions, "Liberty," "Dollars," "Trust in God" (similar to "In God We Trust"), and "USA" (similar to "United States of America"), and an inscription purporting to denote the year of production; and
    • Depict images that are similar to United States coins, such as the torch on the reverses of the current dime coin, 1986 Statute of Liberty commemorative silver dollar and 1993 Bill of Rights commemorative half-dollar, and the Liberty Head designs on the obverses of United States gold coins from the mid-1800s to the early 1900s.
    However, despite their misleading appearance, NORFED "Liberty Dollar" medallions are not genuine United States Mint coins and they are not legal tender.


    Second, the advertisements confusingly refer to NORFED "Liberty Dollar" medallions as "legal" and "constitutional." However, under the Constitution ( Article I, section 8, clause 5 ), Congress has the exclusive power to coin money of the United States and to regulate its value. By statute ( 31 U.S.C. § 5112(a) ), Congress specifies the coins that the Secretary of the Treasury is authorized to mint and issue and requires the Secretary to carry out these duties at the United States Mint (31 U.S.C. § 5131). Accordingly, the United States Mint is the only entity in the United States with the lawful authority to mint and issue legal tender United States coins.
    Under 18 U.S.C. § 486, it is a Federal crime to utter or pass, or attempt to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver intended for use as current money except as authorized by law. According to the NORFED website, "Liberty merchants" are encouraged to accept NORFED "Liberty Dollar" medallions and offer them as change in sales transactions of merchandise or services. Further, NORFED tells "Liberty associates" that they can earn money by obtaining NORFED "Liberty Dollar" medallions at a discount and then can "spend [them] into circulation." Therefore, NORFED’s "Liberty Dollar" medallions are specifically intended to be used as current money in order to limit reliance on, and to compete with the circulating coinage of the United States. Consequently, prosecutors with the United States Department of Justice have concluded that the use of NORFED’s "Liberty Dollar" medallions violates 18 U.S.C. § 486.

  13. #13
    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    According to their own website, the US Mint does in fact claim the Liberty Dollars are in violation of law.

  14. #14
    Member DelawareDistrict's Avatar
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    The Justice Department is alleging a crime, not the U.S. Mint. The Liberty Dollars are not "coined" money for the United States, they would have to be represented as "legal tender" to violate that criteria. This is nothing but a witch hunt to shut down a company that happens to be exposing the weakness of the United States currency and its system of printing worthless fiat money.

    In reality, this is nothing more than the simple question of whether or not private individuals have the right to trade private goods amongst themselves without government interference or approval.

    If the Justice Department prevails with this lawsuit, another blow to freedom will occur.
    The path is clear
    Though no eyes can see
    The course laid down long before.
    And so with gods and men
    The sheep remain inside their pen,
    Though many times they've seen the way to leave.

  15. #15
    Member Dumbfounded's Avatar
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    Smile

    I remember watching a documentary explaning how there is nothing "Federal" about the Federal Reserve System, that its privately owned and
    the citizens have to "pay" for the money they earn

    The private/income tax laws are a total deception;Unconstitutional to the max while corporations who originally were supposed to pay taxes have been getting all kinds of tax cuts not to mention low or no restrictions on pollution (if a manufacturing plant)


    The late comedian Bill Hicks made a joke on how "the economy is fake anyways."

    Boy. Talk about prescience!


    Chipping away at liberty a little at a time, usually so slow that we haven't noticed how much freedoms we've lost in the last two decades;
    Under Bush, the NWO or whatever "agenda's" schedule has been sped up so that the theft of our civil liberties is a hard slap in the face;Its impossible NOT to notice freedom's last gasp


    Oh-Look forward to the first living person (United States) on currency:

    George W. Bush replacing George Washington on the $1 bill! (From a Showtime "Masters Of Horror" Episode)

    Can't you just picture George's smirking, blank-faced, big-eared face on the $1 instead of Washington's?



    We can't have the barter system in which workers trade their time and productivity for currency which is not supposed to be taxed!

    Only the corporations are supposed to be taxed, not private citizens!!


    Damn! Forgot how much wealth our fake economy brings to that "special 1%" of "true Americans" looking down on us "commoners" with revulsion and disdain.
    Coincidence is the word we use when we can't see the levers and pulleys.

    Emma Bull

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