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Thread: Give the teachers state test not the students..

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    Member DomesticatedFeminist's Avatar
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    Give the teachers state test not the students..

    Finland has the best education systems in the world and I recently came across something interesting. They put the trust in the teachers to evaluate their students rather than state mandated tests, however they test the teachers to make sure they know what they are doing and are constantly retraining them.

    What do you think of this?
    “Two percent of the people think; three percent of the people think they think; and ninety-five percent of the people would rather die than think.”

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    How do we know Finland has the best education system? What kind of system is it and how does it differ from the USA, other than teacher testing?
    First Amendment rights are like muscles, if you don't exercise them they will atrophy.

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    Member DomesticatedFeminist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mesue View Post
    How do we know Finland has the best education system? What kind of system is it and how does it differ from the USA, other than teacher testing?
    They rank 1 in the world right now.

    I am talking about college level. I am talking about first and secondary education.

    All schools are publically funded (even religious).

    They give the teachers more freedom.

    When they go onto secondary they can either go on with academics or go into a trade. Some do both.

    They don't start formal education until children are 7.
    “Two percent of the people think; three percent of the people think they think; and ninety-five percent of the people would rather die than think.”

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    I'm all for making sure teachers know their content inside and out. Sadly, many teachers in this country aren't very well educated. And the emphasis is on pedagogy in teacher training. While this is important, if teachers know their content thoroughly and they are intelligent, they can derive their own pedagogical methods. Of course once you learn lots of math and science (as an elementary school teacher should) then the draw to education will be weaker because these individuals (who are mostly women) would generally seek higher paying careers.

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    Umm... do youknow anything abuot Finland?? Like they have a 10% minority population, very strict immigration laws, required Finish to be spoken in schools, have a low poverty/crime rate, have a much lower single parent rate.

    You're talking about Apple and oranges.
    "I know you guys enjoy reading my stuff because it all makes sense. "

    Dumbest post ever! Thanks for the laugh PO!

  6. #6
    Member geo_wny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DomesticatedFeminist View Post
    Finland has the best education systems in the world and I recently came across something interesting. They put the trust in the teachers to evaluate their students rather than state mandated tests, however they test the teachers to make sure they know what they are doing and are constantly retraining them.

    What do you think of this?
    A few things, teachers do take state tests to become teachers. They are certification tests and depending on what you teach it maybe in the range of 3-6 certification tests along with a video of you teaching.

    Second, retraining cost money and the state is giving a lot less. We do have training (superintendent conference days) and you have the ability to go to outside training. For teachers certified after 2005 they have to have a min. of 175 professional hours (training hours) within 5 years or risk loosing your certification. With every district now cutting things from their budget this outside training is the first to go, atleast in my school it was.

    The US can't compare to finland, their whole way of life is different from ours.

    Here are the requirements to be a Social studies teacher, grades 7-12. This is one example

    Requirements:
    Education - Bachelors Degree
    Minimum 2.50 Undergraduate GPA
    General Core in Liberal Arts and Sciences - 30 S.H.
    College Coursework - Artistic Expression
    College Coursework - Communication
    College Coursework - Information Retrieval
    College Coursework - Humanities
    College Coursework - Language other than English (including American Sign Language)
    College Coursework - Written Analysis and Expression
    College Coursework - Concepts in Historical and Social Sciences
    College Coursework - Scientific Processes
    College Coursework - Mathematical Processes
    Content Core - Social Studies - 30 S.H.
    College Coursework - Economics
    College Coursework - Government
    College Coursework - Social Studies Set including U.S. History, World History, Geography - 21 S.H.
    College Coursework - World History
    College Coursework - U.S. History
    College Coursework - Geography
    Pedagogical Core - 21 S.H.
    College Coursework at Student Developmental Level - Adolescent - Grades 7-12 - 6 S.H.
    College Coursework - Human Development and Learning
    College Coursework - Teaching Students with Disabilities & Special Health-Care Needs
    College Coursework - Teaching Literacy Skills Methods - 3 S.H.
    College Coursework - Teaching Literacy Skills - 3 S.H.
    College Coursework - Curriculum, Instruction, and Assessment
    College Coursework - Foundations of Education
    Student Teaching - Social Studies 7-12 - 40 Days
    New York State Teacher Certification Exam - Liberal Arts & Science Test (LAST)
    New York State Teacher Certification Exam - Secondary Assessment of Teaching Skills (ATS-W)
    Content Specialty Test (CST) - Social Studies
    Additional Education - Masters Degree
    Graduate Coursework Content Core - Social Studies - 12 S.H.
    Paid, full-time Classroom Teaching experience - 3 Yrs
    Mentored Experience - 1 Yrs
    Workshop - Child Abuse Identification
    Workshop - School Violence Intervention and Prevention
    Fingerprint Clearance
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  7. #7
    Member citymouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geo_wny View Post
    A few things, teachers do take state tests to become teachers. They are certification tests and depending on what you teach it maybe in the range of 3-6 certification tests along with a video of you teaching.

    Second, retraining cost money and the state is giving a lot less. We do have training (superintendent conference days) and you have the ability to go to outside training. For teachers certified after 2005 they have to have a min. of 175 professional hours (training hours) within 5 years or risk loosing your certification. With every district now cutting things from their budget this outside training is the first to go, atleast in my school it was.

    The US can't compare to finland, their whole way of life is different from ours.

    Here are the requirements to be a Social studies teacher, grades 7-12. This is one example

    Requirements:
    Education - Bachelors Degree
    Minimum 2.50 Undergraduate GPA
    General Core in Liberal Arts and Sciences - 30 S.H.
    College Coursework - Artistic Expression
    College Coursework - Communication
    College Coursework - Information Retrieval
    College Coursework - Humanities
    College Coursework - Language other than English (including American Sign Language)
    College Coursework - Written Analysis and Expression
    College Coursework - Concepts in Historical and Social Sciences
    College Coursework - Scientific Processes
    College Coursework - Mathematical Processes
    Content Core - Social Studies - 30 S.H.
    College Coursework - Economics
    College Coursework - Government
    College Coursework - Social Studies Set including U.S. History, World History, Geography - 21 S.H.
    College Coursework - World History
    College Coursework - U.S. History
    College Coursework - Geography
    Pedagogical Core - 21 S.H.
    College Coursework at Student Developmental Level - Adolescent - Grades 7-12 - 6 S.H.
    College Coursework - Human Development and Learning
    College Coursework - Teaching Students with Disabilities & Special Health-Care Needs
    College Coursework - Teaching Literacy Skills Methods - 3 S.H.
    College Coursework - Teaching Literacy Skills - 3 S.H.
    College Coursework - Curriculum, Instruction, and Assessment
    College Coursework - Foundations of Education
    Student Teaching - Social Studies 7-12 - 40 Days
    New York State Teacher Certification Exam - Liberal Arts & Science Test (LAST)
    New York State Teacher Certification Exam - Secondary Assessment of Teaching Skills (ATS-W)
    Content Specialty Test (CST) - Social Studies
    Additional Education - Masters Degree
    Graduate Coursework Content Core - Social Studies - 12 S.H.
    Paid, full-time Classroom Teaching experience - 3 Yrs
    Mentored Experience - 1 Yrs
    Workshop - Child Abuse Identification
    Workshop - School Violence Intervention and Prevention
    Fingerprint Clearance
    Citizenship Status - INS Permanent Residence or U.S. Citizenship

    Interesting..
    "If you want to know what God thinks of money just look at the people he gave it to."

    By the way, what happened to biker? I miss the old coot.

  8. #8
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    There is no point in giving teachers a test as there is very little that can be done if they fail. The actions that can happen for incompetence are fought at every step of the way. Just a waste of money.

    Also, does it really matter if Mr. Smith knows his subject when he is dealing with kids who have not showered in two days, had a hot meal in 3 and parents who have zero concern for their education? The answer is no.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DomesticatedFeminist View Post
    They rank 1 in the world right now.

    I am talking about college level. I am talking about first and secondary education.

    All schools are publically funded (even religious).

    They give the teachers more freedom.

    When they go onto secondary they can either go on with academics or go into a trade. Some do both.

    They don't start formal education until children are 7.
    But, my question were/are
    How do we know Finland has the best education system? What kind of system is it and how does it differ from the USA, other than teacher testing?
    got a link?
    First Amendment rights are like muscles, if you don't exercise them they will atrophy.

  10. #10
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    I believe that she is basing her claim on the OECD and PISA

    here's a link

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8601207.stm

    also here
    http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/34/60/46619703.pdf

    You should really read this.
    http://neatoday.org/2010/10/07/how-f...onal-rankings/

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genoobie View Post
    I believe that she is basing her claim on the OECD and PISA

    here's a link

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8601207.stm

    also here
    http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/34/60/46619703.pdf

    You should really read this.
    http://neatoday.org/2010/10/07/how-f...onal-rankings/
    thank you
    First Amendment rights are like muscles, if you don't exercise them they will atrophy.

  12. #12
    Member nogods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geo_wny View Post
    A few things, teachers do take state tests to become teachers. They are certification tests and depending on what you teach it maybe in the range of 3-6 certification tests along with a video of you teaching.

    Second, retraining cost money and the state is giving a lot less. We do have training (superintendent conference days) and you have the ability to go to outside training. For teachers certified after 2005 they have to have a min. of 175 professional hours (training hours) within 5 years or risk loosing your certification. With every district now cutting things from their budget this outside training is the first to go, atleast in my school it was.

    The US can't compare to finland, their whole way of life is different from ours.

    Here are the requirements to be a Social studies teacher, grades 7-12. This is one example

    Requirements:
    Education - Bachelors Degree
    Minimum 2.50 Undergraduate GPA
    General Core in Liberal Arts and Sciences - 30 S.H.
    College Coursework - Artistic Expression
    College Coursework - Communication
    College Coursework - Information Retrieval
    College Coursework - Humanities
    College Coursework - Language other than English (including American Sign Language)
    College Coursework - Written Analysis and Expression
    College Coursework - Concepts in Historical and Social Sciences
    College Coursework - Scientific Processes
    College Coursework - Mathematical Processes
    Content Core - Social Studies - 30 S.H.
    College Coursework - Economics
    College Coursework - Government
    College Coursework - Social Studies Set including U.S. History, World History, Geography - 21 S.H.
    College Coursework - World History
    College Coursework - U.S. History
    College Coursework - Geography
    Pedagogical Core - 21 S.H.
    College Coursework at Student Developmental Level - Adolescent - Grades 7-12 - 6 S.H.
    College Coursework - Human Development and Learning
    College Coursework - Teaching Students with Disabilities & Special Health-Care Needs
    College Coursework - Teaching Literacy Skills Methods - 3 S.H.
    College Coursework - Teaching Literacy Skills - 3 S.H.
    College Coursework - Curriculum, Instruction, and Assessment
    College Coursework - Foundations of Education
    Student Teaching - Social Studies 7-12 - 40 Days
    New York State Teacher Certification Exam - Liberal Arts & Science Test (LAST)
    New York State Teacher Certification Exam - Secondary Assessment of Teaching Skills (ATS-W)
    Content Specialty Test (CST) - Social Studies
    Additional Education - Masters Degree
    Graduate Coursework Content Core - Social Studies - 12 S.H.
    Paid, full-time Classroom Teaching experience - 3 Yrs
    Mentored Experience - 1 Yrs
    Workshop - Child Abuse Identification
    Workshop - School Violence Intervention and Prevention
    Fingerprint Clearance
    Citizenship Status - INS Permanent Residence or U.S. Citizenship
    The kids who got C's and D's because they didn't put in the effort end up as adults who blame teachers for their missed opportunities.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    The kids who got C's and D's because they didn't put in the effort end up as adults who blame teachers for their missed opportunities.
    Pretty much,,

    Adding to that that Americans and their children have gotten lazy..

    Think about all the hard courses in college that one had.. then think about the number Asians in those courses.

    You can't cure lazy. Lazy students... lazy teachers...lazy parents.

    We have insulated as a society.....laziness, stupidity, the unfortunate.....so we select what we want.. kinda like the government you deserve.

    And I am talking long term support and insulation...

  14. #14
    Member DomesticatedFeminist's Avatar
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    We need to put more trust into teachers while watching over what they are doing. State mandated test are already costing the state a fortune on so many different levels.

    Did anyone read the park districts board of ed's view point in the Buff news on Sunday? Look at how many people just end up dropping out and getting a GED, that's why graduation rates are so low. IEP diploma's don't count as a diploma.

    Buffalo isn't the only district in the state having problems. So maybe we need to start protesting the state board of regents instead of protesting against the school districts themselves.

    Longer school days and more homework are only going to make things worse. We will see higher drop out rates and more behavioral problems. Let the kids develop and stop trying to mold them.
    “Two percent of the people think; three percent of the people think they think; and ninety-five percent of the people would rather die than think.”

  15. #15
    Member DomesticatedFeminist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    The kids who got C's and D's because they didn't put in the effort end up as adults who blame teachers for their missed opportunities.
    Not really.. I had many great teachers but had terrible grades. I had lds but I also gave up easily when things were hard. But I graduated from a rather academically competitive school because I had great teachers. Yes I had some bad ones, who didn't but over all the teachers I had were fantastic who tried there hardest with me. The teachers I had were there for students on every level, around for after school help, there to talk to students who were having a hard time and some over all who were some what inspirational. Some let themselves show a little vulnerability but were still strong role models. I rag on Mount Mercy but looking back I was soooooo lucky and I learned more taking non regents classes at mercy than some people learn while working on an associates degree. Even though I sucked at math I was able to take AP classes in areas I was strong like History. I could have taken advantage of so many programs there that I didn't, looking back I could kick myself in the butt. If I tried I could have taken classes at trocair for crying outloud! I would have been done with college by the age of 20 with a career in hotel management or switched the credits I had to the nursing program like some girls did.

    So before you go there, people do change over time. I firmly put my blam with the state board of regents and no child left behind for the mess Buffalo is in now. I just made it through without a regents diploma. I had friends who were suppose to graduate the year after me and they had to return to high school for one regents class, usually a math. Even before that there were girls who had to come back to mercy the year after they were suppose to graduate for half the year twice a cycle for gym class because they failed it.

    I think passing gym to graduate is a bit weird.
    “Two percent of the people think; three percent of the people think they think; and ninety-five percent of the people would rather die than think.”

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