Regionalism?

[wnyerlaughs]

The hypothesis I accept to the answer of the thread question is one four letter word: SNOW

More precisely our freeze thaw cycle in New York State. Northern roads requirement for more maintenance, than their southern counter parts, have created the need for many localized highway departments. Town governments developed around the increasing funds to maintain the roadways. Roads can not be efficiently maintained by regional county style government.

Here is the break down for New York:
Town per lane mile cost: $24,581
Cities per lane mile cost: $26,387
Counties per lane mile cost: $41,087
Village per lane mile cost: $45,575*
NYS Thruway Authority per lane mile: $259,649**
New York DOT per lane mile:$493,333**

*quality of service is greatly increased at this level, ie, sidewalk plowing, snow bank removal, etc. at apparent desire of residence.
** Costs for these roads are estimated to be 3-4x higher because of truck traffic.
***New York DOT, may not be accurate because of difficulty in obtaining data.

Towns cover:57,970 miles
Cities cover: 12,430 miles
Counties cover: 20,736 miles
Villages cover: 6,780 miles
NYS Thruway Authority: 1,187 miles
NYS DOT: 15,000+ miles



I believe the most efficient way to deliver snowplowing and road maintenance is through town and city government. Combining these services to more resemble a county style government will not only cost 67% more but, if Erie county is any example, decrease quality of service. I would even contend that although cities and towns are close in cost per mile that quality of service is higher in towns. I don't consider villages because residence of them seem to enjoy paying the additional cost for the additional service. And they have little affect on costs to people outside villages yet the outsiders still enjoy the benefits.

Considering the hypothesis, we won't save money by combining this service, which totals 23% of total town spending. One of the largest expenditures for towns is an essential service and they are providing it more efficiently than any other agency. It seems it will be difficult to shrink government on this level.


Here is my solution:
Town governments should gain more roads and other services, they provide efficiently, under their responsibility. Decrease the state budget and county budgets accordingly and shrink those levels of government. Personally, I would like to see Erie county shrunk as small as possible. And go back to a board of Town Supervisors. Further, spending on the state level needs to be decreased, seeing as 50% of OP's budget and 88% of Erie county's budget are state mandates.

http://www.nyslocalgov.org/pdf/HighwayServices.pdf

http://www.thruway.ny.gov/about/fact...ml#Maintenance

Our educational system needs to be overhauled as well. Using a study that ranks New York as 2nd in results(which contradicts the governors 34th in results statement), the other top five places are underspending New York by at least 20%. We can obviously make cuts here and not suffer worse results, if we do, it is do to mismanagement not under funding. We should look at what other top states are doing and copy their systems.

It may have evolved that way due to snow, with maintenance handled more effectively at local level rather than regional approach. However, if tha tis the case, then a privatization of the road maintenance would actually be more cost effective, especially in NY state ( http://www.michiganinbrief.org/editi...s/issue-48.htm )due to localized, specialized focus, PLUS NYS can collect taxes on the pensions of retred private sector road maintenance employees, and taxes from the companies doign the work, and state taxpayers would liekly be paying LESS for the healthcare bennies of the private sector contractors than we pay for the state and local road crews.

I guess lots of civil serv peeps can thank the snow for creating need for local road crews, hence a local govt to administer, and, of course, the office clerks to take pothole complaints, and, of course, tax free pensions for everyone's brother in-law.

So the snow is to blame for our regionally bloated local govt infrastructures. Let's see Kevin Gaughan fight mother nature now.

I can appreciate the inisghts though; thanks for sharing that snow angle. Makes some sense, but doesn't justif ywhy town boards need 4 or 5 instead of 3. That's just trough-feeders hanging on to the govt paychecks for dear life. IF they REALLY gave a hoot, they'd do it as volunteers.

[Save Us]

It may have evolved that way due to snow, with maintenance handled more effectively at local level rather than regional approach. However, if tha tis the case, then a privatization of the road maintenance would actually be more cost effective, especially in NY state ( http://www.michiganinbrief.org/editi...s/issue-48.htm )due to localized, specialized focus, PLUS NYS can collect taxes on the pensions of retred private sector road maintenance employees, and taxes from the companies doign the work, and state taxpayers would liekly be paying LESS for the healthcare bennies of the private sector contractors than we pay for the state and local road crews.

I guess lots of civil serv peeps can thank the snow for creating need for local road crews, hence a local govt to administer, and, of course, the office clerks to take pothole complaints, and, of course, tax free pensions for everyone's brother in-law.

So the snow is to blame for our regionally bloated local govt infrastructures. Let's see Kevin Gaughan fight mother nature now.

I can appreciate the inisghts though; thanks for sharing that snow angle. Makes some sense, but doesn't justif ywhy town boards need 4 or 5 instead of 3. That's just trough-feeders hanging on to the govt paychecks for dear life. IF they REALLY gave a hoot, they'd do it as volunteers.

What of other areas that recieve heavy snowfall that pay less taxes.

NY needs to drop the fantasy that government employment is a means to a prosperous economy, it is not, it never has been. With the majority of WNY'ers knowing little else, it's unlikely anything will ever change.

We have too much government, too many government employees, too many generous welfare programs and too many benefits.. makes taxes too high, people leave businesses go elsewhere.

Kinda like a mentally deficient person poking themselves in the eye and not knowing who is doing it to them.. the only thing apparent is the wailing and crying.

I have an experiment for all of you.. tell your friends and family, people on the street that you have decided to move from NY because of whatever laundry list of reasons.

Tally the responses of A. can't disagree with you because

vs B. Why would you do that, its great, stay?

and then post what the tally is.



obviously this experiment need not be carried out by public sector employees.

we know your answer.

[eleanor]

Wnyerlaughs
If privatization works, I'm all for it.
As for the bloat, what I'm saying is we probable are stuck with a local gov't be it county or town. I say pick one or the other and use it for everything you must. I say Towns. If downsizing makes sense, do it. But make sure it is the right decision, because the savings don't amount to much. And if it is wrong, it may cost more. Still on the town level you can create volunteer committees that citizens serve on, so you could have a Town Board with less people than can handle the work load. As long as you have an active community who volunteers on these committees. Waste at town levels usually gets corrected faster and is noticed sooner than any other layer of government.

I really don't see a need for county government. Between the state and towns, can't we put Erie county services on one or the other, which ever is most efficient. Still put the burden on all of Erie County taxpayers for those services, just have the money go to the entity that took over for those services. If funded, OP highway could handle Chestnut Ridge. We can't make Erie county Gov't go away all together but we can make it real small. One less layer.

[wnyerlaughs]

Wnyerlaughs
If privatization works, I'm all for it.
As for the bloat, what I'm saying is we probable are stuck with a local gov't be it county or town. I say pick one or the other and use it for everything you must. I say Towns. If downsizing makes sense, do it. But make sure it is the right decision, because the savings don't amount to much. And if it is wrong, it may cost more. Still on the town level you can create volunteer committees that citizens serve on, so you could have a Town Board with less people than can handle the work load. As long as you have an active community who volunteers on these committees. Waste at town levels usually gets corrected faster and is noticed sooner than any other layer of government.

I really don't see a need for county government. Between the state and towns, can't we put Erie county services on one or the other, which ever is most efficient. Still put the burden on all of Erie County taxpayers for those services, just have the money go to the entity that took over for those services. If funded, OP highway could handle Chestnut Ridge. We can't make Erie county Gov't go away all together but we can make it real small. One less layer.

agreed, you brought an interesting point, but its evolved to a monster that is just perceived as a trough to feed at now. no one in pub sector cares how it got there; all that matters is that it's a place to feed. Consider: a dos doesnt care how his food got in the bowl in fornt of him. But, you ever try taking that foodbowl away from a very hungry german shepherd? Watch what happens.

good points though. no change will be seen in our lifetimes though. too many other issues in the way before even getting there.

[Linda_D]

This thread is silly.

• The OP's little game of "guess what off-the-wall reason I think caused strong village/town government" is silly and disingenuous.
• The premise that NYS is divided into towns and villages because of snow is silly, and historically, totally inaccurate. I suggest that the OP spend some time reading US colonial history since the traditions of strong town/village government in the North and strong county government in the South were established in the colonial period.
• Moreover, county governments cannot be dissolved without major change to the NYS Constitution because they are the unit of government that the state constitution recognizes -- just as states can't be dissolved without changing the US Constitution.
• Why is it that the only kind of "regionalization" that Erie County residents can think of is government control? DING! DING! There's no law preventing Erie County and all the towns, villages, and cities from sharing services like central accounting services or merging all police forces in the county. Instead of looking at services that lend themselves to this kind of situation, it seems that all EC residents and the pols they elect want to do is take over one another's governments, and then they wonder why nothing gets done.

BTW, I'm still waiting for that list of advantages that would arise from a city/county merger -- aside from diminishing the political power of African Americans and Hispanics, which is the unspoken reason for many to push "regionalism".

[WNYresident]

BTW, I'm still waiting for that list of advantages that would arise from a city/county merger -- aside from diminishing the political power of African Americans and Hispanics, which is the unspoken reason for many to push "regionalism".

You really believe that?

how does having less "administration" for "government inc" relate to less political power for anyone? Last time I looked we have non white races for mayor, governor for a while, president etc...

If we had a mayor for "regional" buffalo any race could vote for them.

Your comment is SO UNSPOKEN it is the first time I every heard that being one of the reasons against regionalism.

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

BTW, I'm still waiting for that list of advantages that would arise from a city/county merger -- aside from diminishing the political power of African Americans and Hispanics, which is the unspoken reason for many to push "regionalism".

Funny you place the race card while living in Jamestown which is 93% white.

You are correct about diminishing the political power of city leadership..but it does not matter what race they are. The city was run into the ground by whites before it was continued to be run into the ground by blacks and hispanics.

The advantages of a city/counter merger would be to give the people in the county, which is 71.5% of the population, more control over the region. In exchange for providing resources to the COB which holds just 28.5% of Erie County.

[WNYresident]

Why is it the state seems to pick up the tab for Buffalo schools but not for the schools in the burbs?

[buffy]

One issue made clear by this thread is that there will be no regionalism before a NYS constitutional convention changes existing law.

Before that happens, we need a leader who has cultivated a regional concensus and has an appropriate plan that eliminates layers of duplicate services. Once our expenses are under control we can show off our assets. We have a Coast Guard. We have an international waterway and border with Canada. We have hockey, we have hydropower, gorges, islands, lakes, rivers, and finally, Niagara Falls.

The Niagara Frontier is flush with green tourism. Who needs manufacturing when you've got Niagara Falls, three sisters island, cave of the winds? Tear down the abandoned chemical factories and promote Nature. Nature requires protection, supervision and maintenance, so, there are job possibilities and could serve as a place civil servants could "bounce" to. We don't know that we are a cash cow. Green tourism will pay for itself.

Promoting Niagara Falls as a regional asset along with the surrounding State Parkway (Frederick Law Olmstead), the greenway bike trail along the Niagara River leading to the City of Buffalo and its FLO Park System, the architecture is beautiful and to be desired by tourists. This would also be a great place for high speed rail. Tear down the 190 and go underground.

[granpabob]

when the two differant styles of government were created winter and it's frozen ground was an advantage. the south had rain which creates MUD. the dirt roads were bad in early spring and fall in both areas but in the north the mud froze down south the mud lasted all winter. they had horses and sled up north that did better if the roads were left alone packed snow was better then mud. snow removal became a problem when cars took over by then the southern county idea and the northern kingdoms had long been established

[eleanor]

This thread is silly.

• The OP's little game of "guess what off-the-wall reason I think caused strong village/town government" is silly and disingenuous.
• The premise that NYS is divided into towns and villages because of snow is silly, and historically, totally inaccurate. I suggest that the OP spend some time reading US colonial history since the traditions of strong town/village government in the North and strong county government in the South were established in the colonial period.
• Moreover, county governments cannot be dissolved without major change to the NYS Constitution because they are the unit of government that the state constitution recognizes -- just as states can't be dissolved without changing the US Constitution.
• Why is it that the only kind of "regionalization" that Erie County residents can think of is government control? DING! DING! There's no law preventing Erie County and all the towns, villages, and cities from sharing services like central accounting services or merging all police forces in the county. Instead of looking at services that lend themselves to this kind of situation, it seems that all EC residents and the pols they elect want to do is take over one another's governments, and then they wonder why nothing gets done.

BTW, I'm still waiting for that list of advantages that would arise from a city/county merger -- aside from diminishing the political power of African Americans and Hispanics, which is the unspoken reason for many to push "regionalism".

Your first point is not even worth a response.

Second:The climate had every thing to do with colonial period development into towns and counties. It just came more pronounced with the invention of cars and roads. I got this theory from professors at UB, so someone should talk to them about it being totally inaccurate.

Third:Never said anything about dissolving Erie County government. Transfer services and make the Supervisors the county leg.

Fourth: I think I argued the point of road maintenance being most efficient at the Town level. I didn't see any numbers from you for cost savings on combining accounting services and police forces. You may have something on accounting but the work load will be the same so I can't see major savings.
The police services, I am willing to bet towns provide them more efficiently than counties. I thought to look into it before but thats a project for another day. From what I have looked into so far, the only cost savings for eliminating duplicate services is eliminate the service all together.

All that being said, voters want certain services be it hospitals, police, education, road maintenance, etc. We as voters need to make sure the services we want are being provided the most efficient they can. I think my town is efficient and the county is getting there. But both these budgets are over bloated with unfunded state mandates. Overspending on the state levels forces the smaller municipalities to run efficiently or have major problems.

Anyway, I just see message boards, letters to the papers, protesters, and people that speak at board meetings as fans just cheering or booing. The speaking at board meetings maybe accomplishes something but very little and protesters do only with a big enough crowd. People, go to your representatives on every level and tell them what you want. And ask them where you can get involved. And don't take no for an answer. No one is going to implement your ideals better than you. Or else idiots like me will run things.

[citymouse]

Wnyerlaughs
I really don't see a need for county government. Between the state and towns, can't we put Erie county services on one or the other, which ever is most efficient. Still put the burden on all of Erie County taxpayers for those services, just have the money go to the entity that took over for those services. If funded, OP highway could handle Chestnut Ridge. We can't make Erie county Gov't go away all together but we can make it real small. One less layer.

This makes the most sense of anything I read here on reducing goverment. County goverment is redundant. I already have a city goverment why do I need county goverment? The only things I can see that we really need any type of county goverment for is the holidning center. When a sheriff gives you a traffic ticket you don't go to a county court you go to court in the city, town , or village where he wrote you. The local cops could take care of that, seeing how the local courts already do.
We don't need Collins or the county legislature. We did fine up untill the sixties when we created them. Aboard of county supervisors worked fine.
I say dismantle county goverment and go back to the old way of doing things. That will reduce your taxes!

[citymouse]

[QUOTE=Linda_D;723618]Are you truly looking for an answer or is this supposed to be some kind of quiz?

If you are looking an answer, here it is:

NYS has a tradition of town government because it was settled primarily by New England "Yankees" who brought their ideas of local control with them. From the earliest settlement, settlers congregated into clumps that eventually became hamlets and villages because small farms make for a denser population and because small farmers depend on service providers like blacksmiths, wagon-makers, and storekeepers who congregate in little towns. The Yankees also brought with them their ideas about the community churches and schools. That ethic has been around since the colonial era and continues even today.

In the South, the early settlers copied the British shire (county) form of government rather than the town form that developed further north. Also, the farms were larger and thus more isolated in the South, even in colonial times.The large plantations were largely self-sufficient as slaves usually provided the services independent tradesmen did in the North, and frequently, plantation owners who lived along navigable rivers had their own docks so that they didn't need to have local stores, either, but could depend upon more distant merchants, some in England. Small farmers were much more likely to be subsistence farmers in the South than in the North because they had a harder time getting their products to market. There were no canals, few improved roads, and not many railroads even by 1860.

In the piedmont area of the South, particularly in the Upper South (Virginia, Maryland, Kentucky) where plantations were less common and small farms prevalent, similar patterns of small towns developed as they did in the North. However, in the South, the planters dominated the state governments, and they voted for what was in their interests, not what was in the interests of the smaller landowners. The pattern of larger land-holding in the South continued from the colonial period into the 20th century, resulting in a much lower population density in rural areas than in New England, New York or the Midwest.

Finally, many southern states have counties that are considerably smaller than counties in NYS, not just in population but in physical area. Consequently, states smaller than NYS may have a 100+ counties. NYS has 62. In WNY, we have the largest counties in area in the state outside of the Adirondaks. Erie County has an area of about 1000 square miles, Chautauqua and Cattaraugus about 1200 square miles each. The counties in Adirondaks like Hamilton, Essex and Warren are even larger, but have much less population. Long distances between different parts of counties created strong attachments to the nearest local government, not to the county government, in the 19th and early 20th centuries when transportation was harder.

QUOTE]

This is right on the money as any one who reads colonial history will tell you. I would only add that the Land grants, private purchasing of land from the Iroquois, set up land companies like the Holland land company that developed the land into Townships, not counties.

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

This makes the most sense of anything I read here on reducing goverment. County goverment is redundant. I already have a city goverment why do I need county goverment? The only things I can see that we really need any type of county goverment for is the holidning center. When a sheriff gives you a traffic ticket you don't go to a county court you go to court in the city, town , or village where he wrote you. The local cops could take care of that, seeing how the local courts already do.
We don't need Collins or the county legislature. We did fine up untill the sixties when we created them. Aboard of county supervisors worked fine.
I say dismantle county goverment and go back to the old way of doing things. That will reduce your taxes!

As usual, you do not see the big picture.

What eats up most of the Erie County Budget? That would be social services. Where does most of the money for Erie County come from? That would be property taxes in the towns. Where do most of those on social services live? That would be the COB.

If NYS just had State and Towns, the COB would go broke in a New York minute. The COB does not pay for its schools. The state does. The COB does not pay for most of the social services for its residents, the rest of Erie County does.

Not saying that people in Erie County who do not live in the COB would be against it...but rather you would be an idiot if you were a COB resident looking to remove that subsidy.

[eleanor]

As usual, you do not see the big picture.

What eats up most of the Erie County Budget? That would be social services. Where does most of the money for Erie County come from? That would be property taxes in the towns. Where do most of those on social services live? That would be the COB.

If NYS just had State and Towns, the COB would go broke in a New York minute. The COB does not pay for its schools. The state does. The COB does not pay for most of the social services for its residents, the rest of Erie County does.

Not saying that people in Erie County who do not live in the COB would be against it...but rather you would be an idiot if you were a COB resident looking to remove that subsidy.

You can't dissolve the county gov't completely. Basically, reduce it to a tax collecting agency and it just disperses the funds to where ever the services ended up at town levels. If services end up at State level, they can figure out how to pay for them. 88% of their budget goes to the state anyhow, you telling me we can't get the 12% they do control down to 1%. I am not convinced that we can't find already existing entities on state, city, and town levels to take over everything the county provides and not disrupt service or add more tax burden to anyone. And we will at least save on highway so far that I have found.