High speed rail.

[Dougles]

Last night Obama reiterated his support for a US high speed rail system. He wants to spend BILLIONS of our tax dollars to create a European like system that will connect major US cities and reduce travel time.

I personally think were not like Europe at all, we are much more rural and we have great distances between our cities. Additionally, the current rail system we have, Amtrak, costs us over 6 BILLION dollars a year.

Do you think a High Speed Rail system would survive in the US without govt funding?

[cheekman]

No..... better question can amtrak

[NBuffaloResident]

No, but neither could an interstate highway system, either.

[300miles]

All transportations systems need government funding. (cars, planes, trains...)

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

Last night Obama reiterated his support for a US high speed rail system. He wants to spend BILLIONS of our tax dollars to create a European like system that will connect major US cities and reduce travel time.

I personally think were not like Europe at all, we are much more rural and we have great distances between our cities. Additionally, the current rail system we have, Amtrak, costs us over 6 BILLION dollars a year.

Do you think a High Speed Rail system would survive in the US without govt funding?

I think HSR could work but it is being implemented by the US Government which hurts. The reason is the funding is being spent for political gain rather than productivity. It is being spent as a "jobs bill" rather than a infrastructure project.

The best way to look at it to pretend you are someone with $40Billion dollars and you want to go into the HSR business.

Would you:

A - Spread your money around to 31 States and focus on 13 projects all at once.

B - Look at the 13 projects, list those in order of productivity and complete them one at a time.


A politician chooses A because it spends money in several different states which helps when election time comes calling. It is going to take much longer for plan A to be completed but HSR is not the goal of plan A. Spending money to try and get to HSR is.

A business owner chooses B because it gets the most productive line on first. After that line is open at operating at full capacity, the business owner moves to the second project and then the third. As they get deeper down the list, the active lines are contributing to the cost of development.


This is why I always wanted the Government to simply "sell the rights" to HSR in the US. Not exactly sure how it would work but here is a simple idea.

Take the 13 corridors and set standards for what should exist in regards to stations, track and speed. This way each corridor can connect to each other when possible. Also set standards of how much of the construction needs to be done by US workers v. foreign workers who have actual experience in building this.

This would eliminate the need for US taxpayers to take a risk on HSR and it would remove politics from the process as well.

The fact that Florida is getting the largest amt of funding is a joke. The fact that after $8B is spent..not a single line will be 100% operational is outrageous.

[NBuffaloResident]

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This is why I always wanted the Government to simply "sell the rights" to HSR in the US. Not exactly sure how it would work but here is a simple idea.

...clip....

Bid out the process. Take your idea (Pick the best line first), and bid out the project. After the ROI has been realized, give it to the company.

Spend $8 Billion, 10 years, get $8 Billion back from revenue, and cast it off to the people already running it. They win, the US wins. With essentially spending nothing.

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

Bid out the process. Take your idea (Pick the best line first), and bid out the project. After the ROI has been realized, give it to the company.

Spend $8 Billion, 10 years, get $8 Billion back from revenue, and cast it off to the people already running it. They win, the US wins. With essentially spending nothing.

The other challenge I see is the stops at areas where the population is less than 700k.

In New York for example, include a stops in Plattsburgh (19k residents), Utica (60k residents) and Schenectady (60k residents). Not only would each stop slow down the train...it is going to cost 100s of Millions to build stations for these areas.

If the Empire Line was done in the private sector, you would see stops in Buffalo, Rochester, Albany and NYC...maybe Syracuse.

[300miles]

it would remove politics from the process as well.

How would a private company handle ROW (right of way) issues, or the potential need for emminent domain, without govt and political involvement?

That is not as big an issue in NY where the ROW already seems to exist. But nationwide I'm sure it will come up.

[Dougles]

The other challenge I see is the stops at areas where the population is less than 700k.

In New York for example, include a stops in Plattsburgh (19k residents), Utica (60k residents) and Schenectady (60k residents). Not only would each stop slow down the train...it is going to cost 100s of Millions to build stations for these areas.

If the Empire Line was done in the private sector, you would see stops in Buffalo, Rochester, Albany and NYC...maybe Syracuse.

This is why i think it would be a failure, too many stops and not in central locations. Do i think a line that runs from Boston to DC woudl work? HECK YEAH. but a line that runs from Albany to Buffalo, or Albany to Boston, or Buffalo to Cleveland, HELL NO!! A simple reason, once you get off that train how do you get to your destination?

A great example is when i visit my parents just out side of Schenectady. A few years ago i took the train, cost was about $100 and it took over 5 hours, it's never taken more than 4.5 to drive there and with Gas and tolls is about the same cost, however if i had travelled with a second person the cost goes up for the train, but stays about the same for a car. Additionally, i had to drive 15 min to the train station, leave my car there and had to arrive 15 to 20 min ahead of time. Once i arrived in the Schenectady train station, which is pretty much in the downtown area, i had to have my brother pick me up, or i could have taken a $15 cab ride. While staying at my parents we were one care short, to be honest i really didn't need a car, but if i was on vacation in say Cleveland i would have had to take a taxi or rent a car.

We are nation that is more mobil than any other, rail travel will only further restrict that! Why else does it take 6 BILLION to keep Amtrak running?

[300miles]

i don't think the High Speed line would stop everywhere. It will probably stop at Niagara Falls, Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Utica, Albany, and NYC.

Personally I think NYS should plan for the 150 mph trains or faster. The 110 mph trains are an improvement, but probably not the best ROI when compared with driving or flying.

What Dougles mentioned is very true. Getting dropped off somewhere without a car is not convenient, unless your dropped off where there is other transportation. If the train came directly to downtown buffalo, and the metro rail was expanded, then it would be more convenient.

[Dougles]

What Dougles mentioned is very true. Getting dropped off somewhere without a car is not convenient, unless your dropped off where there is other transportation. If the train came directly to downtown buffalo, and the metro rail was expanded, then it would be more convenient.

Just think how much higher our taxes would be to subsidize the NFTA would be if they expanded the line and added more busses!

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

This is why i think it would be a failure, too many stops and not in central locations. Do i think a line that runs from Boston to DC woudl work? HECK YEAH. but a line that runs from Albany to Buffalo, or Albany to Boston, or Buffalo to Cleveland, HELL NO!! A simple reason, once you get off that train how do you get to your destination?

This line already exists. It is called the Acela Express and it is run by Amtrak.

The reality for Amtrak is most of the routs it covers are lines with multiple stops and take a long ass time to get from point A to B. These lines are the reason why Amtrak needs money.

Consider that you can take a train on the Acela Express from Boston to D.C, which covers about 394miles in 6 hr, 37 min. This is about 60mph. On the flip side, you can take a train on the Pacific Surfliner from San Diego to San Luis Obispo, which covers 285miles in 8 hr, 30 min. This is about 30mph.

As for the lines between places like Buffalo and Cleveland or Albany to Buffalo, you are correct that the station location is key. If the politicians have their way..the Central Terminal will be used. This location has already been proven a VERY COSTLY mistake once over. There are lots of keys that are needed to make the system work.

However, if the stations are located in the downtown core of each city AND the locations of the stations are for areas with a metro population of over $700k, then I feel the system would work.

What should happen, under the right circumstances, is short range flights between places like Buffalo to Cleveland, Detroit, NYC, Cincinnati, Chicago, Albany, Rochester and Philadelphia should be almost non-existent. Airlines would need to change and concentrate on flights over 500 miles except for flights that are designed for nothing more than connections to hubs.

The market would put airlines like Colgan Air and Mesaba out of business but that would just be a natural evolution IMO.

I personally think you are underestimating the value of connections places like Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo via train. But this is just my opinion.

A great example is when i visit my parents just out side of Schenectady. A few years ago i took the train, cost was about $100 and it took over 5 hours, it's never taken more than 4.5 to drive there and with Gas and tolls is about the same cost, however if i had travelled with a second person the cost goes up for the train, but stays about the same for a car. Additionally, i had to drive 15 min to the train station, leave my car there and had to arrive 15 to 20 min ahead of time. Once i arrived in the Schenectady train station, which is pretty much in the downtown area, i had to have my brother pick me up, or i could have taken a $15 cab ride. While staying at my parents we were one care short, to be honest i really didn't need a car, but if i was on vacation in say Cleveland i would have had to take a taxi or rent a car.

If Schenectady is your destination...you should drive IMO. Schenectady is a City of 60k residents in a County of 150K residents. Hell, come to think about it, Albany should not even have a HSR train station IMO and I know that if a private developer were building the line...it wouldn't.

But the connection of "true" metro regions, regardless of what you think about them, can be productive.

We are nation that is more mobil than any other, rail travel will only further restrict that! Why else does it take 6 BILLION to keep Amtrak running?

Actually, I think it we are a stubborn nation more than anything.

The $6B to keep Amtrak running is because we, as a nation, are stubborn and will not let the slow moving traditional rail service die. If Amtrak would drop lines like the Pacific Surfliner and focus on lines like the Acela, they would not have such money problems. But at every stop are workers who want to protect their jobs. Every stop is located in a Congressional district, that has a member of Congress that will do anything to keep that unproductive service online.

Here is the simple breakdown of how it should be....

Traveling over 500 miles...take a flight. Rent a car if needed.
Traveling under 500 miles to a major metro region...take the train. Rent a car if needed.
Traveling under 500 miles to a non-metro region...drive.

This of course hinges on....

Rail stations being located in the core of these metro regions.
Rail service to non-metro regions eliminated.
Telling Airlines to go shove it when they try to play hardball on regional routes.

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

i don't think the High Speed line would stop everywhere. It will probably stop at Niagara Falls, Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Utica, Albany, and NYC.

Personally I think NYS should plan for the 150 mph trains or faster. The 110 mph trains are an improvement, but probably not the best ROI when compared with driving or flying.

What Dougles mentioned is very true. Getting dropped off somewhere without a car is not convenient, unless your dropped off where there is other transportation. If the train came directly to downtown buffalo, and the metro rail was expanded, then it would be more convenient.

I think Buffalo to Rochester to NYC would be a start. Run the lines through Syracuse, Utica and Albany if needed but do not place a stop. Not until they reach the population of places like Buffalo and Rochester.

The reason I say this is with the number of stops you suggest, it would not matter how fast the train went. It could never get over 100mph because it would need to slow down before it got up to that speed to make a stop.

[300miles]

it's about 90 miles between Rochester and Syracuse.
How many miles does it take the train to speed up?
I can't believe it would have to go 40 miles before getting up to speed...

[Bioguy231]

I've ridden high speed rail in Germany quite a bit and it is a slick, fast way to get places. It's also as expensive as it is to fly.

There are a couple of major differences between the US and Germany. For one, population density. Germany has over 60 million people crammed into a country that isn't much bigger than a state.

For another, the infrastructure for rail travel in Germany is very well established and has been for a long time. For the Germans, creating high speed rail simply meant adding to what they already had, not building it from scratch.

Also, high speed rail competes primarily with air travel. In the case of Germany, Lufthansa, it's major airline, is owned by the government. In the US, creating high speed rail would mean the government would be competing with private industry.

If the US wants to do something to mimic the Germans, train people to drive better and get rid of the speed limits on the interstates!!!!