This is why Buffalo is Buffalo

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

Think it could at least pay for itself?

First, it really depends on how you define 'pay for itself'... Are you talking about just the revenue from ridership or casting a wider net and looking at things like property values, property tax revenue, population density and the costs savings of it, etc? Two very different conversations.

Why subsidize something like that if in the end not that many compared to the population it serves uses it?

That's up to you. There are cities/regions that 'do things' and cities/regions that don't. You're free to live in either.

[WNYresident]

As a whole.

First off what good does it do someone who doesn't benefit from the subway when their property taxes increases? They may not get more clients because the subway goes in front of their business. They may even get less business while watching their property taxes rise.

What about the home owner a few blocks away who has their property value go up but in the end doesn't benefit from the subway. They should be happy because the cost of living in their home increased? What fun is that? For the good of the community I can no longer live in my home until i pass away. Screw that crap.

I understand others look at things like this for the community's benefit but I look at this type of stuff from the individuals point of view.

[grump]

Think it could at least pay for itself?

Why subsidize something like that if in the end not that many compared to the population it serves uses it?

I'm getting way more frugal as I get older. Or maybe finally realizing the value of a dollar and why it should not be spent on items with very little return. Most of us will be dead by the time many of the projects we read about make a difference. Sounds selfish but a lot people don't give a crap about helping others succeed while they are trying to do the same.

Everyone will be dead by the time the projects we read about will make a difference because none of them will.

[WNYresident]

Why do we have that opinion but the powers that be don't?

One example... Was the 33 gutting Buffalo really helping Buffalo if we look back?

[grump]

TRAX in Salt Lake actually moved close to 19 million people. Since we're doing a comparison, we should also point out that the TRAX system has 3 lines, 50 stations and covers 58 miles. That's:

• 6.3 million per line
• 380k per station
• 327k per mile

The metro is just 1 line, 13 stations and covers 6.4 miles. Using the 5,000,000 rider mark that's:

• 5 million per line
• 385k per station
• 781k per mile

These numbers are for two cities with a similar Metro population. So what's the difference? TRAX goes more places. Period. Mass transit is only as good as the places it services. It's why the morons who are talking about running light rail to the Central Terminal have their head up their ass.

I can guarantee you that if the Buffalo Metro went to UB North and had two stems off it it would produce similar ridership to TRAX. The first stem would run up Elmwood through Buffalo, Kenmore, Tonawanda and then over the Grand Island and then to Niagara Falls. The second stem would go past ECMC, Cheektowaga and then the airport. This would still be a smaller network than TRAX but more productive. Why? Because you could get from one place to another.

This system will not happen of course. Buffalo isn't going to host an Olympics to cover the infrastructure bump that SLC got. But that's not a part of the conversation....

Well, Leftie, if we’re going to point out that TRAX moves closer to 19 million then we should point out that the Metro moves closer to 4 million. And comparing TRAX to the metro rail is a bit like comparing a Lexus to my old Chevy Vega. Like everything about SLC, TRAX is reasonably clean and kept in good repair. It’s not the rolling outhouse that we have here. And given NFTA’s well documented history of ignoring routine system maintenance there’s no reason to expect that to change. Moreover, SLC continues to benefit from the arrival of escapees from the world’s largest mental institution, California. Buffalo, however, does not. You talk about a system going places. You’ve seen the posts about the proposed extension being little more than an on campus tram for UB. It fails to reach every major retail and commercial center in the area. It’s a readymade taxpayer funded replacement for the “vomit comet”, the bus service that runs hammered UB students from the Amherst campus to the University district and back again. It’s not needed in a dying city and would be a senseless diversion of resources away from a city like SLC that is dynamic and growing.

[cheekman]

The subway to nowhere if they expand it its dead in its tracts. like the solar panel plant waste of taxpayers money to build. soon to be another industrial park or yogurt plant.

[grump]

Why do we have that opinion but the powers that be don't?

One example... Was the 33 gutting Buffalo really helping Buffalo if we look back?

WNY, if you and I were raking in millions off Riverbend like Cuomo’s friends were we might have loved it too. Then again I don’t think I could debase myself by paricipating in a criminal scheme like that. Nor could you, I bet.

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

Well, Leftie, if we’re going to point out that TRAX moves closer to 19 million then we should point out that the Metro moves closer to 4 million. And comparing TRAX to the metro rail is a bit like comparing a Lexus to my old Chevy Vega. Like everything about SLC, TRAX is reasonably clean and kept in good repair. It’s not the rolling outhouse that we have here. And given NFTA’s well documented history of ignoring routine system maintenance there’s no reason to expect that to change. Moreover, SLC continues to benefit from the arrival of escapees from the world’s largest mental institution, California. Buffalo, however, does not. You talk about a system going places. You’ve seen the posts about the proposed extension being little more than an on campus tram for UB. It fails to reach every major retail and commercial center in the area. It’s a readymade taxpayer funded replacement for the “vomit comet”, the bus service that runs hammered UB students from the Amherst campus to the University district and back again. It’s not needed in a dying city and would be a senseless diversion of resources away from a city like SLC that is dynamic and growing.

Agree with you that Trax is better in every regard. My point still stands that if the Metro in Buffalo actually went places and connected places where people live to the same level the TRAX network does, it would show similar ridership to what you see in SLC. I don't see this as being up for debate as I have already proven it.

What can be debated is if Buffalo can/will fund/build an extension to the network. I think there is a tipping point when it comes to mass transit. A network needs to reach a certain level of connectivity before the local culture embraces the network as a primary method of transportation. If a crappy region like Buffalo can every get to that tipping point is the conversation. If the region should continue to move in that direction, even if it won't get there for decades and decades, is the question. After all, when it comes to mass transportation there are more have not than haves. http://www.jetteroheller.com/list-of...assenger-rail/

[sharky]

I always hear that it should be extedned to UB North. IS the thought that more students will ride it? They can already get to South Campus via the UB busses that run every 10 minutes and could then get on the train there. If they're not doing that already I don't think extending the rail to norht campus is going to do much to increase ridership.

[grump]

With all due respect, Leftie, you haven’t proven it. You’ve postulated it. Unless you mean that, if Buffalo were SLC it would have the results that SLC has. But then it would be SLC and not Buffalo. The only way to prove it is to spend a billion dollars to find out. But we just pissed away 3/4 of a billion to find out that no one wants solar panels. How about a break!

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

I always hear that it should be extedned to UB North. IS the thought that more students will ride it? They can already get to South Campus via the UB busses that run every 10 minutes and could then get on the train there. If they're not doing that already I don't think extending the rail to norht campus is going to do much to increase ridership.

In public transportation every transfer you add to the process cuts your ridership massively. So the transfer you mention is not as easy to overcome as you seem to suggest. Also to note, these busses would go away with the extension and the money UB spends on them would go into the new network to my understanding.


Should also be mentioned that the extension to UB North also includes connecting to a few massive office parks which opens up the jobs there to a huge number of city residents. Companies like Geico for example.

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

With all due respect, Leftie, you haven’t proven it. You’ve postulated it. Unless you mean that, if Buffalo were SLC it would have the results that SLC has. But then it would be SLC and not Buffalo. The only way to prove it is to spend a billion dollars to find out. But we just pissed away 3/4 of a billion to find out that no one wants solar panels. How about a break!

Fair enough. I think you can make a pretty strong inference there.

Also, when you talk about 'we' who is that? The funding for Tesla and the rest of the pet projects in the other Billion came from NYS. Which really means 80% of it came from downstate.

[grump]

“We” to me is the entire state. And if the statistics haven’t changed 17% comes from 14th Street and south in NYC. But we’re overtaxed as a state. The flow of tax $ in New York runs in ebbs and floes from time to time. There used to be a an informal working arrangement in the legislature that funding for MTA and upstate roads and bridges would be roughly equal. The last time the Dems controlled both houses the arrangement went in the toilet. It’s already headed that way again. But I doubt it will come back.

[grump]

Leftie, the “we” is the taxpayers of NYS, all of them. We’re overtaxed. If the statistics haven’t changed, 17% of it comes from 14th and south in Manhattan. Sorry, my first replied had disappeared so I responded again.

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

“We” to me is the entire state. And if the statistics haven’t changed 17% comes from 14th Street and south in NYC. But we’re overtaxed as a state. The flow of tax $ in New York runs in ebbs and floes from time to time. There used to be a an informal working arrangement in the legislature that funding for MTA and upstate roads and bridges would be roughly equal. The last time the Dems controlled both houses the arrangement went in the toilet. It’s already headed that way again. But I doubt it will come back.

As of 2018, 70% of income tax collected in NYS comes from Westchester, Nassau, Suffolk and New York City. 40% from NYC residents alone. Hell, more in taxes is collected from non-residents who commute from New Jersey and Connecticut than what's collected in all of Western New York. Seeing as since 62% of the state's population lives in New York City, Westchester and on Long Island, I think it's also safe to say that 70% to 80% of the fees and other taxes come from downstate as well.


That's not to say WNY isn't overtaxed. You are. It's stupid how high you're taxed. What I am saying is even with the high local taxes the majority of the expenses are paid by downstate.