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Thread: $2.988 BILLION is "nothing" according to #Cuomo

  1. #1
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    $2.988 BILLION is "nothing" according to #Cuomo

    Can you say "Solyndra" or "Solar City" ?

    Where's the claw back if the jobs creation falls short ?

    The city and state’s $3 billion giveaway to lure Amazon to New York City won’t cost a dime, Gov. Andrew Cuomo claimed Tuesday as he defended throwing a mountain of taxpayer money at the $1 trillion company.

    “This is a big money-maker for us — costs us nothing, nada, niente. We make money doing this,” Cuomo said during a press conference announcing Amazon’s plans to open a headquarters in Queens.

    The state enticed the online retail monolith here with $1.2 billion in tax credits and an up to $505 million subsidy, while the city is forking over $897 million in tax credits for relocating to the Big Apple and another $386 million in tax abatements for the new, 9 million-square-foot campus it plans to build.

    That’s a total of at least $2.988 billion in exchange for Amazon’s pledge to create at least 25,000 permanent, full-time jobs paying an average $150,000 salary over the next decade.
    https://nypost.com/2018/11/13/cuomo-...ts-us-nothing/
    #Dems play musical chairs + patronage and nepotism = entitlement !

  2. #2
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4248 View Post
    Can you say "Solyndra" or "Solar City" ?

    Where's the claw back if the jobs creation falls short ?

    The city and state’s $3 billion giveaway to lure Amazon to New York City won’t cost a dime, Gov. Andrew Cuomo claimed Tuesday as he defended throwing a mountain of taxpayer money at the $1 trillion company.

    “This is a big money-maker for us — costs us nothing, nada, niente. We make money doing this,” Cuomo said during a press conference announcing Amazon’s plans to open a headquarters in Queens.

    The state enticed the online retail monolith here with $1.2 billion in tax credits and an up to $505 million subsidy, while the city is forking over $897 million in tax credits for relocating to the Big Apple and another $386 million in tax abatements for the new, 9 million-square-foot campus it plans to build.

    That’s a total of at least $2.988 billion in exchange for Amazon’s pledge to create at least 25,000 permanent, full-time jobs paying an average $150,000 salary over the next decade.
    https://nypost.com/2018/11/13/cuomo-...ts-us-nothing/
    To be fair....

    NYS spent about $750,000,000 to land a plant that was supposed to have 2,500 jobs. Say the jobs paid on average $50,000. That's an annual payroll of $125,000,000. Or $0.16 in payroll per dollar invested. If Amazon does break up the HQ2 in half, meaning 25,000 jobs that average $150,000.00, you're looking at $3,750,000,000 in annual payroll for a $3,000,000,000 'investment'. That's $1.25 in payroll per dollar invested.

    It should also be noted that the Amazon deal is mostly tax credits and breaks. That's entirely different than subsidies or factory construction...which is cash out of pocket. The 'story' that Andy is telling here is based on just the $505 million subsidies. What he is selling is taking $0.80 on taxes that didn't exist is 'free money' compared to asking for the $1.00 that does not exist.

    The con here, and there is always a con, is that this project is going to cost NYS much much more than the above figures. You're going to need to upgrade all of the infrastructures around the campus and dealing with the MTA isn't cheap. You're also going to displace 20,000+ residents from the area because when they move in others are going to move out and it's not like NYC has empty housing....



    The biggest difference here is that WNY went out and demanded 'factory' jobs because by and large factory workers are the level of skill that exists in the region. WNY demanded jobs for people who live there rather than landing companies who would just hire the talent they needed. It's typical for WNY to look backward rather than forward.

    Can you imagine if they would have kept the original plan for the site having six different companies there and a focus on R&D rather than assembly? Would be a completely different game today.

  3. #3
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    A slap in the face to existing businesses who compete with Amazon. That is how I look at it.

    Every retailer who sells anything that Amazon sells is a competitor.

    Will every retailer now receive the same "deal" with the same "mostly tax credits and breaks"

  4. #4
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    Every retailer who sells anything that Amazon sells is a competitor.

    Not really. Burger King and Ruth's Chris both sell hamburgers....

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    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Yes really.

    Is Ruth's getting incentives and breaks while Burger King is not?

  6. #6
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    The Amazon deal is no win for New Yorkers

    New York is offering vastly more than Virginia for its half of the new Amazon headquarters. What’s up with that?

    The city and state ponied up nearly $3 billion in grants, credits and so on over 25 years. Down south, Amazon is getting $573 million plus $195 million in infrastructure upgrades. Sure looks like Amazon’s Jeff Bezos just fleeced Gov. Andrew Cuomo and Mayor Bill de Blasio as rubes.

    Columnist E.J. McMahon noted one possible explanation: New York had to pay more to cover Amazon’s added costs for using all-union construction workers. If that’s the deal — and the praise from building-trades honcho Gary LaBarbera suggests it is — then it’s the taxpayers who are getting fleeced.
    https://nypost.com/2018/11/13/the-am...**Z6kvl2NgqblI

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    Just a few thoughts and there's so much more to consider :

    "He’s donated to mostly Democrats: Bezos has been described by friends as a libertarian, but he’s given donations to mostly Democrats and a few Republicans. That includes Democratic Sens. Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell of his home state of Washington, in addition to Democratic Sen. Pat Leahy of Vermont and Democratic Rep. John Conyers of Michigan"


    "Earlier this week, we outlined why the U.S. State Department (Hillary Clinton) picked Amazon’s Kindle over other tablets and e-readers, including Apple’s iPad and Barnes and Noble’s Nook, among others. The State Department attributed their pick to the Kindle’s text-to-speech requirement, long-lasting battery life and ability to access free Wi-Fi worldwide, among other key factors like portability and durability.
    The five-year contract is worth $16.5M, with an initial Kindle order of 2,500 from the government, but it ultimately has the potential to put “tens of thousands of Kindle electronic readers in educational centers around the world,” as previously reported"

    Don't get me wrong - he buys/supports politicians on both sides of the aisle - in different states. This way his needs are protected no matter who's in control - after all he is a Global businessman !
    #Dems play musical chairs + patronage and nepotism = entitlement !

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    As the rest of the deal trickles out :

    Amazon will also receive a cash grant of $325 million towards its headquarters building.

    --- What's more, the company can also avail of city’s Relocation and Employment Assistance Program, which grants employers $3,000 in tax credits per year to locate in the outer boroughs. With a workforce of 25,000, Amazon could snatch close to an extra $1 billion in savings.
    #Dems play musical chairs + patronage and nepotism = entitlement !

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    Leftie, there’s no difference between the out of pocket taxpayer cash to build the largely empty Riverbend facility and to skim off the top to put a few million in the pockets of Cuomo’s contributors and the tax giveaways to Amazon. Those billions will be made up by me and the rest of New York’s taxpayers. Those holes in state revenues will have to be filled. So we lose in both circumstances. As for Buffalo wanting manufacturing jobs, the education system here can’t even produce workers for that. I was talking with a former colleague I hadn’t seen in awhile. His wife used to teach in the Buffalo Public Schools and he told me that she maintains that its a form of child abuse to send children to the Buffalo schools. Riverbend was never really about jobs, it was about the appearance of job creation while siphoning taxpayer money to major Cuomo donors. Musk can awake from another drug induced haze and simply announce that the regulatory climate makes the plant unviable and he walks away scot free and the taxpayers get diddly.

  10. #10
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    Yes really.

    Is Ruth's getting incentives and breaks while Burger King is not?
    In places like NYS incentives are given based on what return they provide...not the product they provide.

    Any business is able to apply for the same incentives that Amazon is getting. They just need to show that they will be adding new jobs or building new factories..etc. That's the game in NYS. Tax and regulate everyone and then claw back those taxes and regulations for a selected few who can justify it.

    If you want to be judged on just the product you provide you need to move to a different state.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by grump View Post
    Leftie, there’s no difference between the out of pocket taxpayer cash to build the largely empty Riverbend facility and to skim off the top to put a few million in the pockets of Cuomo’s contributors and the tax giveaways to Amazon.

    There absolutely is. The Riverbend project was cash from NYS coffers going to construction and then hoping a return would come. It's a spend $1 to make $1.25 type situation. A tax break is taking less in taxes from a sum of taxes that don't even exist today. It's a take $0.75 rather than $1 on new business for a limited period of time.

    The biggest difference here is that if Plan A doesn't work...you're out $1. If Plan B doesn't work, you're not out anything.

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    Leftie, the tax for which the break was given would be due someday. Otherwise, what you’re saying is they’re being given nothing. They’re being granted a reduction in the amount they owe to New York, if they’re not being given a reduction then tax breaks are meaningless gestures. Essentially, it’s a debt forgiven and a debt forgiven typically is income under the Internal Revenue Code. Since the state is forgoing the debt owed by Amazon it will make up the lost revenue from someone and that’s me. You can quibble about the amount but it’s still a transfer of wealth from me and my neighbors to Bezos.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by grump View Post
    Leftie, the tax for which the break was given would be due someday. Otherwise, what you’re saying is they’re being given nothing. They’re being granted a reduction in the amount they owe to New York, if they’re not being given a reduction then tax breaks are meaningless gestures. Essentially, it’s a debt forgiven and a debt forgiven typically is income under the Internal Revenue Code. Since the state is forgoing the debt owed by Amazon it will make up the lost revenue from someone and that’s me. You can quibble about the amount but it’s still a transfer of wealth from me and my neighbors to Bezos.
    That's not how I see it.

    If the company does not exist in NYS and is offered tax breaks to move some operations here, the tax money is only due if they move and the only way they move is if they get the tax break.

    If a company does exist in NYS and has 10 employees but wants to build a new office and expand to 25 employees, they will owe taxes on the current operation but won't owe taxes on the expanded operation until it expands and it will only expand if they get the break.

    In both of these examples, the tax break is on something that does not exist currently and therefore not producing a tax bill. The break is on a future bill yet to be created.

  14. #14
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    That's not how I see it.

    If the company does not exist in NYS and is offered tax breaks to move some operations here, the tax money is only due if they move and the only way they move is if they get the tax break.

    If a company does exist in NYS and has 10 employees but wants to build a new office and expand to 25 employees, they will owe taxes on the current operation but won't owe taxes on the expanded operation until it expands and it will only expand if they get the break.

    In both of these examples, the tax break is on something that does not exist currently and therefore not producing a tax bill. The break is on a future bill yet to be created.
    This is how I see it.

    A company such as Amazon shouldn't be given any tax breaks or tax payer cash because they directly compete against other retailers. Other businesses who who contribute to the tax base. Their money even if pennies in the end should not be taken from them and handed to their competition. Isn't there something in the State Constitution that bans this practice?

    Yes I know they may create jobs but for each job they create there could be other jobs lost.

    The only "job" I care about for the most part is mine and my clients. As my competitors go not so much.

    I know other states are competing to but that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

    Amazon isn't like opening up a manufacturing plant that makes a product that for the most part no one else makes.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    A company such as Amazon shouldn't be given any tax breaks or tax payer cash because they directly compete against other retailers. Other businesses who who contribute to the tax base. Their money even if pennies in the end should not be taken from them and handed to their competition. Isn't there something in the State Constitution that bans this practice?

    Again, tax breaks are not about the product. They are not about rewarding companies. They are about growth. That's just the game that exists and it's not going to change.

    If you want to expand your company you're able to apply for the same breaks that Amazon has.


    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    Yes I know they may create jobs but for each job they create there could be other jobs lost.
    So? That's how things work.

    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    The only "job" I care about for the most part is mine and my clients. As my competitors go not so much.
    So why should Amazon care about you? As for the people giving the breaks, they don't care who makes profits. They just want to grow the tax base. Full stop.

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