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Thread: New sites proposed to replace Buffalo's 'obsolete' convention center

  1. #31
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    I missed this article

    http://www.dailypublic.com/articles/...llion-question

    You’ve been invited by Erie County Executive Mark Poloncarz to add your voice to the conversation about whether Erie County should spend $500 million on a new convention center. Let’s hope that thousands of citizens rush to the public comment website where they can present their fact-based, well-reasoned analysis of the question: Should taxpayers spend $500 million on a proven economic loser?

    It’s not a loser because critics say so: Just read the consultants’ own report.

    Consultants hired by Erie County delivered their report last week, in which they insist—despite the numbers that they helpfully include—that spending between $480 and $520 million would create as many as 200 jobs, or $2.5 million per job. In the Buffalo metro area, there are around 550,000 people with jobs, so the 200 jobs would be an increase of a seasonal rounding error.
    http://www.dailypublic.com/articles/...llion-question




    I think my spot lends it self to a much better convention experience compared to the areas on the image above.




    Literally a short distance from the our Airport that is located in Cheektowaga. Buffalo doesn't have an airport.

    Our train station is located at 55 Dick Road, Depew, NY.

    A convenient 8 minutes away.



    The I90 is literally right there. We can have an entrance to the Convention Center right off the 90.

  2. #32
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    It’s not a loser because critics say so: Just read the consultants’ own report.

    The current convention center is a break-even operation thanks to the $1.7 million or so in Erie County bed tax revenue that covers the annual operating loss. The proposed new convention center would also lose money, with the loss subsidized by county revenues.

    The average wage in the hospitality industry, for example, in serving clients of the convention center, is currently under $12 an hour, and not full-time, and without benefits such as health insurance, pension, or sick leave.

    So when the guy from the Buffalo-area automobile dealers’ association says that he wishes he had more space to show his cars during the annual two-week Auto Show, he’s saying that he wants Erie County taxpayers to take 100 years’ worth of all the money we currently invest in the Zoo, the Philharmonic, the Science Museum, the Botanical Gardens, 19 theaters and about 50 other cultural organizations that the County funds annually to make life here nice.
    If all of these statements are true, then Poloncarz and voices like Fisher should come out with a plan to end of life the current convention center and get out of the convention business. This would save a % of the $1.7 million or so Erie County spends from the bed tax revenue and allow money to be directed to items such as the Zoo, Botanical Gardens and 50 other cultural orginizations. I look forward to Poloncarz having to deal with the hospitality industry unions in saying the jobs are not worth the support.

    Speaking of cultural organizations, does a county with about 900,000 residents really need 50 cultural organizations in addition to the Zoo, the Philharmonic, the Science Museum, the Botanical Gardens? If Fisher is making the case that the population is shrinking and Erie County and New York State are going to have money problems...doesn't it make sense to right size the number of cultural organizations that get public funding?

  3. #33
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    Hey Leftie, want to see Erie County and New York State get rid of their money problems over night. Get rid of the retard Poloncarz, get rid of Il Douche, get rid of Fisher and the rest of the chunks floating in the cess pool that is the Democratic Party in New York.

  4. #34
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    As for the article, don’t forget; it was written by Bruce Fisher the lead architect of the economic catastrophe under Joel Giambra. No one should take his word on anything, ever! As for the 600 jobs that he alleges exist at Riverbend, I drove by there last Friday and if there are 600 people working there then they’re all riding to work together, walking or calling Uber. Don’t forget, Elon Musk is virtually incapable of telling the truth about Tesla so anything that he says must be regarded as suspect, a fact that the SEC is finally catching on to. All of that said, western New York needs a new convention center like we need another Poloncarz induced massive property tax hike. We have 4&1/2, maybe 5 good months of weather. As for the rest of the year, conventioneers look for places that allow them to escape weather like ours, not willingly flock to it. This notion that we can turn winter into a tourism asset is a joke. It’s been 40 years since the Blizzard of ‘77 and the resulting notoriety Buffalo received on the national news and the Tonight Show among others. If winter were going to make this area a tourist Mecca it would’ve happened by now.
    Last edited by grump; October 4th, 2018 at 02:41 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    If all of these statements are true, then Poloncarz and voices like Fisher should come out with a plan to end of life the current convention center and get out of the convention business. This would save a % of the $1.7 million or so Erie County spends from the bed tax revenue and allow money to be directed to items such as the Zoo, Botanical Gardens and 50 other cultural orginizations. I look forward to Poloncarz having to deal with the hospitality industry unions in saying the jobs are not worth the support.

    Speaking of cultural organizations, does a county with about 900,000 residents really need 50 cultural organizations in addition to the Zoo, the Philharmonic, the Science Museum, the Botanical Gardens? If Fisher is making the case that the population is shrinking and Erie County and New York State are going to have money problems...doesn't it make sense to right size the number of cultural organizations that get public funding?
    Leftie, this area has been supporting so many crap “cultural organizations” for so long that it’s virtually inconceivable that anyone has the will to stop it...especially a turnip like Poloncarz. It’s easy to pick on things like the junk “community theaters” and sports leagues but this area needs to re-examine whether it can any longer afford a zoo, a botanical garden and so on. If these things are so damned necessary, important and popular why can’t they carry the freight for themselves? It’s obvious that none of these things, singly or taken together, does anything to provide growth and stability to the area. Otherwise, this area wouldn’t be on a continuing downhill slide for going on 60 years. They’re a drain on an overburdened tax base. Actually, I’m surprised the Dems haven’t thought of this. Think of the additional opioid addicts Poloncarz could keep strung out with the money he spends on “cultural”. Another irony to me is that for all the $$$ flushed down the “cultural” toilet every year, this area has one of basest, least sophisticated populations of any city I’ve lived in or visited.

  6. #36
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Editorial: Oh, yes, there will be a new stadium

    When County Executive Mark C. Poloncarz introduced proposals recently for a new convention center in downtown Buffalo, he said the first question for citizens to ask is, "Does our region want to stay in the convention business?" (Our vote was “yes.”)

    The same question should be asked when discussing the idea of building a new stadium for the Bills: Does Buffalo want to remain in the football business?

    We say yes to that, also. And to stay here long-term, the Bills will inevitably need a new stadium. The price for one will be likely more than $1 billion.

    https://buffalonews.com/2018/10/06/e...a-new-stadium/


    Inevitably we have learn by past examples stadium don't return the money invested. I the owners of the team wants a stadium they are more than welcome to spend their own money. I've even ok with them saving tax on one time shots. IE: Tax on material used to build the stadium. Even a discount on the property taxes paid as long as they cover "community" cost for police and what infrastructure needed to operate the stadium.

    It's a costly building that is used about 8 times a year. Even if it a team goes to the superbowl it only adds a few more games before the season is over.


    I think the best place at this time for a new convention center would be the empty spot next to the famous Flamingo Bay.

    We witnessed what Buffalo has done with 100's of millions of dollars. They built a large white elephant along the lake.

  7. #37
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    I think this is to scale if google maps worked.

    I wanted to see if one of the top convention centers would fit

    Vancouver Convention Centre


  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    Editorial: Oh, yes, there will be a new stadium




    https://buffalonews.com/2018/10/06/e...a-new-stadium/


    Inevitably we have learn by past examples stadium don't return the money invested. I the owners of the team wants a stadium they are more than welcome to spend their own money. I've even ok with them saving tax on one time shots. IE: Tax on material used to build the stadium. Even a discount on the property taxes paid as long as they cover "community" cost for police and what infrastructure needed to operate the stadium.

    It's a costly building that is used about 8 times a year. Even if it a team goes to the superbowl it only adds a few more games before the season is over.


    I think the best place at this time for a new convention center would be the empty spot next to the famous Flamingo Bay.

    We witnessed what Buffalo has done with 100's of millions of dollars. They built a large white elephant along the lake.

    To which white elephant are you referring? We’ve built so many.

  9. #39
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Solorcity. There will always be some market for solar panels but I don't think that is something our money should have been used for.

    Does Solar City at least pay some type of property taxes? Anything?

  10. #40
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    Inevitably we have learned by past examples stadium don't return the money invested.

    It's a costly building that is used about 8 times a year.

    These two statements, presented as absolutes, are false. The honest answer is 'it depends'. The flaw in these studies is that they look at every situation the same and they don't dig into specifics of each situation to arrive at their conclusions.

    - Not all situations are equal. There are cities that are truly at risk of having a team leave and cities that are not or would not get a replacement.
    -- A team is not going to leave Atlanta but they will leave San Diego, Oakland, or even Buffalo. Because of this, the return on investment is different. In Atlanta you can't use the benefits of an NFL team in your valuation because they are gonna be there no matter what. In other cities you can look at what a team leaving would do to the economy.

    - Not all cities are equal. There is a difference in opportunity between San Diego and St. Louis.
    -- San Diego lost the Chargers. Lost the ability to host Super Bowls, and will eventually have their bowl games will leave. Those are very big losses.
    -- St. Louis lost the Rams.

    - Not all stadium projects are equal.
    -- Replacing a 20-year-old stadium that's still being paid for is not the same as a 40-year-old stadium.
    -- Putting a stadium in the middle of nowhere is not the same as putting it downtown near stuff.
    -- etc

    - Funding is not equal. It's one thing for the taxpayer to cough up $700 million and another to cough up $250 million.

    - Most, if not all, of these studies, never take into consideration real estate development or movements in real estate value. The main reason is you need to have intimate knowledge of the area even to know where to look, and you can't do that from your office 3,000 miles away.
    -- A stadium in a sea of parking does not provide the same return as a stadium in a city grid.
    -- Some stadiums act as a catalyst for development others do not.

    - Stadiums are not used the same. Some stadiums are used for ~15 events a year. Some stadiums are used +100 events.


    IT ALL DEPENDS


    The reality is most stadium funding deals are bad in one way or another. But there are good deals out there, and there are losses when a deal is not done. If an honest conversation is wanted, it needs to not reference wide stroke studies on unrelated and dissimilar situations and only look at the specifics of that particular deal.

  11. #41
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    These two statements, presented as absolutes, are false. The honest answer is 'it depends'. The flaw in these studies is that they look at every situation the same and they don't dig into specifics of each situation to arrive at their conclusions.

    - Not all situations are equal. There are cities that are truly at risk of having a team leave and cities that are not or would not get a replacement.
    You are correct that not all situations are equal.

    But according to John Stossel who did some research stadiums tend not to have a return on investment.

    So what would the hit to "our" economy if the Buffalo Bills left?

    (just playing devils advocate)


    I understand bars wouldn't have Buffalo Bill nights 8 times a year but there are always Sabres nights. Far more than 8 games.

    I understand local pizza shops might have less business on football nights but we would still have the Sabres and people would watch the Bills no matter what city they went to.

    On the other side we would require less public security costs. Police directing traffic and issues that drinking causes.

    If someone wants to use their own money go for it. I'm looking from the side of the person footing the bill.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    You are correct that not all situations are equal.

    But according to John Stossel who did some research stadiums tend not to have a return on investment.
    John Stossel followed the same broad stroke conclusions that I broke out below on how they are wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    So what would the hit to "our" economy if the Buffalo Bills left?

    I understand bars wouldn't have Buffalo Bill nights 8 times a year but there are always Sabres nights. Far more than 8 games.

    I understand local pizza shops might have less business on football nights but we would still have the Sabres and people would watch the Bills no matter what city they went to.
    To start, it's 16 games at least not 8. Second to that, if the Bills left I don't think you would still have people watching. People in San Diego and St. Louis, by and large, are not fans of the Chargers or Rams now.

    The Bills create jobs in all income brackets. So if the Bills left, that payroll would be gone. Then there is the payroll for all of the businesses that do business related to the Bills.




    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    If someone wants to use their own money go for it. I'm looking from the side of the person footing the bill.

    I am always amused by this comment. It's theatrics. Just how much of the 'bill' do you think you personally will be responsible for on say a $400 million in public money? $200 from both Erie County and $200 from NYS.

    There are about 650k residential properties in Erie County. I think there are about 100k commercial ones as well. Now they all pay different rates but for simple math, lets say they don't. $200m over 20 years with debt service might be $250m or $25m per year. $25,000,000/750,000 is $33 dollars a year or $2.75 a month. As for NYS...we're talking pennies.

    If people in Erie County don't want to support the team for ~$3.00 a month that is perfectly fine. They should just tell the Bills to move to a city like San Antonio where they would gladly pay that.

  13. #43
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    - Not all stadium projects are equal.
    -- Replacing a 20-year-old stadium that's still being paid for is not the same as a 40-year-old stadium.
    -- Putting a stadium in the middle of nowhere is not the same as putting it downtown near stuff.
    -- etc
    Totally understand but a billion is a billion no matter how old the stadium is.




    I know I can fit a convention center next to Falmingo Bay and I bet a stadium as well.






    We can talk about a mix use complex with a stadium.

    Picture this....

    A little eminent domain to remove the businesses along Aero Drive. With your logic if this is a good thing for our community that won't be an issue.

    Now close your eyes and let your imagination do some work....

    A stadium where one side faces the air strip. All glass wall so stadium goers can get an awesome view of planes landing and taking off. At night it would be awesome. I don't know if the sound of the jets would drown out the stadium though. At night it would be spectacular. It would increase our local tourism. People would flock from around the world to catch a football game and watch the planes taking off/landing.

    What a marketing idea I just had!!! We put a GIANT LCD wall on part of the glass wall facing the airport. We can sell advertising. As people are landing and taking off they can see the ads.

    People can take a train from parts of NY to watch the game. Fly in or drive. I just realized we can extend the 33 a little further so we don't have traffic congestion. Entrance to the thruway, we have transit and a minute away the 33.


    The entrance that is connected to the thruway can service both the stadium and the convention center. Billionaires who buy expensive suits can land at the airport, park their jet and shuttle over to the game. Or, a convention.








    Don't mock my ideas. I'm not the one who came up with the lame ass idea of spending 100,000,000's of dollars to build a solar panel plant on the water front.

    Give me enough time and I'll figure out how to extend ellicott creek to Flamingo Bay. We will offer ferry rides to lake erie.

  14. #44
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    Totally understand but a billion is a billion no matter how old the stadium is.
    But it would not be a billion. It would be hundreds of millions from the public.


    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    I know I can fit a convention center next to Falmingo Bay and I bet a stadium as well.
    I know you live there but putting anything..a stadium..a convention center..in Cheektowaga is a bad idea. It's ideas like this that allow others to say these projects are horrible.

  15. #45
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    You have not told me why it's a bad idea?

    "just because" is not a reason.

    The space is there. We have roads already in place for traffic flow. We have the airport and a train station. We have ample hotel/motel rooms, shopping and eateries.

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