The Current Magic Bullets

[Achbek1]

There's nothing wrong with this concept if there was a way to make money off of it.

I do listen about thier concerns and all but the simple fact is money has to come into a community.

Does anyone here really think if every building a preservationist wanted to save in buffalo was pristine that tourism would ramp up to such as extent the economy would because positive again? Without the need of subsidizing 100,000's of peoples livings with support in one form or another because of the growth of jobs and spinoffs?

Exactly! Right now there are two major **** EYED views about "magic bullets" to "save" Buffalo.

The one "magic bullet" view is the CASINO.

The other "magic bullet" view is HISTORIC PRESERVATION.

These two groups have been so loud and have gained so much political clout yet I find it frightening that we are taking either of these groups as seriously as some do. Heck, even Byron Brown was swayed to the pro casino side... Because of the "well, it will bring JOBS" factor.

But with Buffalo's "fragile population" as one politician described it (I think it may have even been Joel Giambra... imagine that) a casino would bring more violence, crime and social ills...

I think that our economic revitalization (or maybe using the term "revitalization" here is too generous, more like "bringing it back from the dead" would be better) needs to be more REALISTIC and METHODIC.

We need to be realistic in terms of seeing our city as what it really is: a mostly poor, declining, economically suffering burnt out shell of a municipality. And now add 70 MURDERS A YEAR to the mix... There ARE some upscale and trendy parts of Buffalo, but face it folks THOSE AREAS ARE THE MINORITY... And even Elmwood, North Buffalo and the Delaware Districts are not immune to the effect of their neighborhoods surrounding poverty. When I lived on Elmwood I had my apartment and my car broken into within the same month... The crack heads were so desperate that they used to STEAL CHRISTMAS CARDS OUT OF OUR MAILBOX AND OPEN THEM TO SEE IF THERE WAS ANY MONEY IN THEM. Even the "upscale" areas are located within walking distance of really bad and really poverty and violence stricken neighborhoods... NO ONE CAN DENY THAT.

So first we need to say, "Hey! We are gonna do what we can to bring in some kind of businesses... Any kind of businesss... As a start." Even if we have to BEGIN with WALGREEENS and (I can't believe I'm saying this but) a freakin' WAL MART or SAM'S CLUB we need to do someting... In the world of choosing the lesser or two evils I'd rather see a WAL MART than a CASINO...

Also, being realistic means that we need to realize that the poor and disenfranchised are bringing the whole city down with them and that segment needs to be rehabilitated first.

STATISTICS SHOW THAT THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF THE ERIE COUNTY BUDGET GOES TO SOCIAL SERVICES. That shows that supporting the poverty stricken is making the rest of us poor. I lost my job with Erie County because of it.

And the POOR DON'T NEED QUAINT HISTORIC BUILDINGS AND TRENDY CAFES... THEY NEED FREAKIN' JOBS!

In terms of being methodic, we need to start from the bottom up... Immediately knock down the old burnt out buildings and crack houses... But back on out of town real estate flippers... We need to allow whatever business or development that wants to open here to open... Hotel, high rise, drug store, etc... JUST LET THEM OPEN! Because each thing that opens will bring in a tax base or a job...

I'm sorry if I went all Dennis Miller on you here, it's just that as a someone who is only in her early 30s, I have seen so much decline in our area and I hate to see how every year it gets worse and worse...

[tomac]

Also, being realistic means that we need to realize that the poor and disenfranchised are bringing the whole city down with them and that segment needs to be rehabilitated first.
STATISTICS SHOW THAT THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF THE ERIE COUNTY BUDGET GOES TO SOCIAL SERVICES. That shows that supporting the poverty stricken is making the rest of us poor. I lost my job with Erie County because of it.
And the POOR DON'T NEED QUAINT HISTORIC BUILDINGS AND TRENDY CAFES... THEY NEED FREAKIN' JOBS!

I agree with you 100% but thanks to New York State's monstrous giveaway program known as Welfare (excuse me, Social Services ), those people will never willingly go back to work.
Why should they, they're making a bunch of money for sitting on their butts doing nothing!
Why should they go get their hands dirty?
We need the State to wake up and tell these people, go out and find a job, the gravy train will be pulling into the station in six months and you'll have to get off at that point. No more free rides.

[300miles]

And the POOR DON'T NEED QUAINT HISTORIC BUILDINGS AND TRENDY CAFES... THEY NEED FREAKIN' JOBS!

I think you're missing a few links in your logic Achbek... because a new "trendy cafe" would actually create jobs. Yes?

If you're against Magic or Silver Bullets then you should be supporting small private enterprise that create jobs, whether you think it's too trendy or not.

[biker]

I agree with you 100% but thanks to New York State's monstrous giveaway program known as Welfare (excuse me, Social Services ), those people will never willingly go back to work.
Why should they, they're making a bunch of money for sitting on their butts doing nothing!
Why should they go get their hands dirty?
We need the State to wake up and tell these people, go out and find a job, the gravy train will be pulling into the station in six months and you'll have to get off at that point. No more free rides.

Even more ominous for NYS and WNY, tomac, the gravy providers have the ability to ply their trades elsewhere.

And they're going elsewhere.

[Timmy]

Its cheaper to re-use old buildings that it is to build new in many cases.

Look at all the housing projects downtown. They are all in re-habbed buildings. If those projects were built new there is no way that you would be getting 5+ floors of residential units and similar could be said for retail and downtown businesses in general.

The Dulski, the Statler and others would never be built new for private purposes but because they are already built they are going to find a creative re-use that adds to our community so I disagree.

I also agree that our pre-civil war era housing in the West Village is an incredibly small area that adds to our city rather than detracts from it. However, I would not hold up the new courthouse from being built or the Hotel on Elmwood so preservation does require some balancing.

Now as far as the poor are concerned. I disagree more with the method than the principle. I believe whole heartedly in a social safety net and a role for government. However, if you look at the way the BMHA competes with the private sector landlords, the house flipping of the MBBA (state agency), the destruction of neighborhoods by urban renewal, or the unions and union arbitrators that are not allowed to evaluate a municipality's ability to pay or whether people are being over compensated (according to national averages). IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE PROBLEM IS LESS ABOUT THE POOR THAN ABOUT THE BLOATED GOVERNMENT AGENCIES & UNIONS ENGORGING THEMSELVES AT THE EXPENSE OF THE POOR AND ABOUT GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS THAT SEEM TO REWARD VICTIMIZATION AND BAD CHOICES THAN PRODUCTIVE MORAL LIVES.

[wheresthesun]

Exactly! Right now there are two major **** EYED views about "magic bullets" to "save" Buffalo.

The one "magic bullet" view is the CASINO.

The other "magic bullet" view is HISTORIC PRESERVATION.

These two groups have been so loud and have gained so much political clout yet I find it frightening that we are taking either of these groups as seriously as some do. Heck, even Byron Brown was swayed to the pro casino side... Because of the "well, it will bring JOBS" factor.

But with Buffalo's "fragile population" as one politician described it (I think it may have even been Joel Giambra... imagine that) a casino would bring more violence, crime and social ills...

I think that our economic revitalization (or maybe using the term "revitalization" here is too generous, more like "bringing it back from the dead" would be better) needs to be more REALISTIC and METHODIC.

We need to be realistic in terms of seeing our city as what it really is: a mostly poor, declining, economically suffering burnt out shell of a municipality. And now add 70 MURDERS A YEAR to the mix... There ARE some upscale and trendy parts of Buffalo, but face it folks THOSE AREAS ARE THE MINORITY... And even Elmwood, North Buffalo and the Delaware Districts are not immune to the effect of their neighborhoods surrounding poverty. When I lived on Elmwood I had my apartment and my car broken into within the same month... The crack heads were so desperate that they used to STEAL CHRISTMAS CARDS OUT OF OUR MAILBOX AND OPEN THEM TO SEE IF THERE WAS ANY MONEY IN THEM. Even the "upscale" areas are located within walking distance of really bad and really poverty and violence stricken neighborhoods... NO ONE CAN DENY THAT.

So first we need to say, "Hey! We are gonna do what we can to bring in some kind of businesses... Any kind of businesss... As a start." Even if we have to BEGIN with WALGREEENS and (I can't believe I'm saying this but) a freakin' WAL MART or SAM'S CLUB we need to do someting... In the world of choosing the lesser or two evils I'd rather see a WAL MART than a CASINO...

Also, being realistic means that we need to realize that the poor and disenfranchised are bringing the whole city down with them and that segment needs to be rehabilitated first.

STATISTICS SHOW THAT THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF THE ERIE COUNTY BUDGET GOES TO SOCIAL SERVICES. That shows that supporting the poverty stricken is making the rest of us poor. I lost my job with Erie County because of it.

And the POOR DON'T NEED QUAINT HISTORIC BUILDINGS AND TRENDY CAFES... THEY NEED FREAKIN' JOBS!

In terms of being methodic, we need to start from the bottom up... Immediately knock down the old burnt out buildings and crack houses... But back on out of town real estate flippers... We need to allow whatever business or development that wants to open here to open... Hotel, high rise, drug store, etc... JUST LET THEM OPEN! Because each thing that opens will bring in a tax base or a job...

I'm sorry if I went all Dennis Miller on you here, it's just that as a someone who is only in her early 30s, I have seen so much decline in our area and I hate to see how every year it gets worse and worse...

I guess Bass Pro is no longer considered one of the magic bullets, is that true? Strange though, as the State Donavan Building was just evacuated in order to destruct and create parking for said fish store.

[biker]

Its cheaper to re-use old buildings that it is to build new in many cases.

Look at all the housing projects downtown. They are all in re-habbed buildings. If those projects were built new there is no way that you would be getting 5+ floors of residential units and similar could be said for retail and downtown businesses in general.

The Dulski, the Statler and others would never be built new for private purposes but because they are already built they are going to find a creative re-use that adds to our community so I disagree.

I also agree that our pre-civil war era housing in the West Village is an incredibly small area that adds to our city rather than detracts from it. However, I would not hold up the new courthouse from being built or the Hotel on Elmwood so preservation does require some balancing.

Now as far as the poor are concerned. I disagree more with the method than the principle. I believe whole heartedly in a social safety net and a role for government. However, if you look at the way the BMHA competes with the private sector landlords, the house flipping of the MBBA (state agency), the destruction of neighborhoods by urban renewal, or the unions and union arbitrators that are not allowed to evaluate a municipality's ability to pay or whether people are being over compensated (according to national averages). IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE PROBLEM IS LESS ABOUT THE POOR THAN ABOUT THE BLOATED GOVERNMENT AGENCIES & UNIONS ENGORGING THEMSELVES AT THE EXPENSE OF THE POOR AND ABOUT GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS THAT SEEM TO REWARD VICTIMIZATION AND BAD CHOICES THAN PRODUCTIVE MORAL LIVES.

I agree with most everything here, except that most contractors will tell you that new built is cheaper than rehab.

[LHardy]

..................... most contractors will tell you that new built is cheaper than rehab.

Give that man a cigar!

It is for all the obvious reasons. It is never cheaper to rehab an "old" existing building. It will cost just as much if not more in the long run. This is why must developers will build new versus rehab. You get the layout exactly as you want it and code requirments cost less to install.
Bottom line "new" build is cheaper.

[Timmy]

It depends on how you run the numbers. In many cases its cheaper to rehab because your running the numbers to exclude remediation and demolition, and your also running the numbers for rehab programs, low interest loans, tax abatements, etc which few new buildings would qualify.

So we disagree but it depends on how you run the numbers and to say otherwise makes you less open minded and more of an absolutist ideologue.

[Edisonic]

News to me. Who's been saying that either a casino or preservation will 'save Buffalo'? Names and articles, please - not a general "they".

[Achbek1]

Looks like Rez put this in a new thread... Thanks

Here is something that is a carry over from the Progressionist thread to this one:

If you read this article you will see some of the themes we have talked about in these two threads:

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial...19/1010364.asp

The article is about entry level job readiness training. Also the article talks about people who are receiving job training and/or GED instruction at the Educational Opportunity Center or other similar center. First of all, good for them! These are people who, while they may have had shaky pasts, are working to build themselves up.

In the article there is mention of a man who is working for a GED at the EOC and then plans to go on to study nursing. He is talking about job experience in general and he mentions that he is working as a CASHIER AT WAL MART while he in in school. The job is helping him to earn money and, more importantly, WORK EXPERIENCE.

The EOC is DOWNTOWN and the only WAL MARTS I now of are in the suburbs... It is unclear where the man in the article lives but chances are he is probably commuting to work at Wal Mart... But again, good for him for going for a GED and job training and for working where he can to get money and job experience while he furthers his studies...

Disclaimer: I am by no way implying that I am pro Wal Mart here, because Wal Mart gives me the creeps to be honest... But Wal Mart is an example of a large national chain retail store. We could use the same premise if it were a K Mart or Target or Home Depot or Kohls or whatnot for that matter.

So, while it may be a loose comparison, it supports some of my original points: MANY SOCIALLY OR ECONOMICALLY DISADVANTAGED URBAN RESIDENTS ACTUALLY DO WANT TO GET EDUCATIONS, BETTER THEIR LIVES AND GET JOBS. Many time the stepping stone to the workforce in general are the entry level jobs available from large chain establishments... Therefore, allowing large chain establishments into the city would be good because it will not only help the economy but it will give individuals WORK EXPERIENCE.

[Achbek1]

I think you're missing a few links in your logic Achbek... because a new "trendy cafe" would actually create jobs. Yes?

If you're against Magic or Silver Bullets then you should be supporting small private enterprise that create jobs, whether you think it's too trendy or not.

Fair enough, but what I actually mean is we need a combination of both... And too often it seems as if those who support the small, trendy establishments are the same ones who vehemently oppose large chain businesses...

I think the key is having BOTH.

But if you look a numbers, we are desperate for jobs here. And one large "big box" store could employ 200 people whereas one little trendy cafe might only employ 20 people...

I think there needs to be a mix of BOTH kinds of development.

Soon.

[biker]

You can't work logic with these people, Achebek. They're against the current faddish, evil conglomerate du decade.

In the 80's it was MacDonalds
In the 90s, it was Microsoft
In the "oughts" it's Walmart

What ever is big and profitable and successful must, perforce, be evil.

And, therefore, must be vilified.

[Achbek1]

You can't work logic with these people, Achebek. They're against the current faddish, evil conglomerate du decade.

In the 80's it was MacDonalds
In the 90s, it was Microsoft
In the "oughts" it's Walmart

What ever is big and profitable and successful must, perforce, be evil.

And, therefore, must be vilified.

Then could it be said they are de facto supporters of poverty?

Huh?

If they are so against something that might, heaven forbid, employ people?

[biker]

I think you're back to the people whom you said cause you some discomfort. The quirky protestor people.

For some reason, they have the itch to drag down the successful.

In the eighties, they dumped on MacDonalds until they became mediocre.
In the nineties, they dumped on Microsoft until it became mediocre
Now, they're dumping on Walmart.

I wonder which company will be the target in the teens?