The Current Magic Bullets

[Achbek1]

There's nothing wrong with this concept if there was a way to make money off of it.

I do listen about thier concerns and all but the simple fact is money has to come into a community.

Does anyone here really think if every building a preservationist wanted to save in buffalo was pristine that tourism would ramp up to such as extent the economy would because positive again? Without the need of subsidizing 100,000's of peoples livings with support in one form or another because of the growth of jobs and spinoffs?

Exactly! Right now there are two major **** EYED views about "magic bullets" to "save" Buffalo.

The one "magic bullet" view is the CASINO.

The other "magic bullet" view is HISTORIC PRESERVATION.

These two groups have been so loud and have gained so much political clout yet I find it frightening that we are taking either of these groups as seriously as some do. Heck, even Byron Brown was swayed to the pro casino side... Because of the "well, it will bring JOBS" factor.

But with Buffalo's "fragile population" as one politician described it (I think it may have even been Joel Giambra... imagine that) a casino would bring more violence, crime and social ills...

I think that our economic revitalization (or maybe using the term "revitalization" here is too generous, more like "bringing it back from the dead" would be better) needs to be more REALISTIC and METHODIC.

We need to be realistic in terms of seeing our city as what it really is: a mostly poor, declining, economically suffering burnt out shell of a municipality. And now add 70 MURDERS A YEAR to the mix... There ARE some upscale and trendy parts of Buffalo, but face it folks THOSE AREAS ARE THE MINORITY... And even Elmwood, North Buffalo and the Delaware Districts are not immune to the effect of their neighborhoods surrounding poverty. When I lived on Elmwood I had my apartment and my car broken into within the same month... The crack heads were so desperate that they used to STEAL CHRISTMAS CARDS OUT OF OUR MAILBOX AND OPEN THEM TO SEE IF THERE WAS ANY MONEY IN THEM. Even the "upscale" areas are located within walking distance of really bad and really poverty and violence stricken neighborhoods... NO ONE CAN DENY THAT.

So first we need to say, "Hey! We are gonna do what we can to bring in some kind of businesses... Any kind of businesss... As a start." Even if we have to BEGIN with WALGREEENS and (I can't believe I'm saying this but) a freakin' WAL MART or SAM'S CLUB we need to do someting... In the world of choosing the lesser or two evils I'd rather see a WAL MART than a CASINO...

Also, being realistic means that we need to realize that the poor and disenfranchised are bringing the whole city down with them and that segment needs to be rehabilitated first.

STATISTICS SHOW THAT THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF THE ERIE COUNTY BUDGET GOES TO SOCIAL SERVICES. That shows that supporting the poverty stricken is making the rest of us poor. I lost my job with Erie County because of it.

And the POOR DON'T NEED QUAINT HISTORIC BUILDINGS AND TRENDY CAFES... THEY NEED FREAKIN' JOBS!

In terms of being methodic, we need to start from the bottom up... Immediately knock down the old burnt out buildings and crack houses... But back on out of town real estate flippers... We need to allow whatever business or development that wants to open here to open... Hotel, high rise, drug store, etc... JUST LET THEM OPEN! Because each thing that opens will bring in a tax base or a job...

I'm sorry if I went all Dennis Miller on you here, it's just that as a someone who is only in her early 30s, I have seen so much decline in our area and I hate to see how every year it gets worse and worse...

[tomac]

Also, being realistic means that we need to realize that the poor and disenfranchised are bringing the whole city down with them and that segment needs to be rehabilitated first.
STATISTICS SHOW THAT THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF THE ERIE COUNTY BUDGET GOES TO SOCIAL SERVICES. That shows that supporting the poverty stricken is making the rest of us poor. I lost my job with Erie County because of it.
And the POOR DON'T NEED QUAINT HISTORIC BUILDINGS AND TRENDY CAFES... THEY NEED FREAKIN' JOBS!

I agree with you 100% but thanks to New York State's monstrous giveaway program known as Welfare (excuse me, Social Services ), those people will never willingly go back to work.
Why should they, they're making a bunch of money for sitting on their butts doing nothing!
Why should they go get their hands dirty?
We need the State to wake up and tell these people, go out and find a job, the gravy train will be pulling into the station in six months and you'll have to get off at that point. No more free rides.

[biker]

I agree with you 100% but thanks to New York State's monstrous giveaway program known as Welfare (excuse me, Social Services ), those people will never willingly go back to work.
Why should they, they're making a bunch of money for sitting on their butts doing nothing!
Why should they go get their hands dirty?
We need the State to wake up and tell these people, go out and find a job, the gravy train will be pulling into the station in six months and you'll have to get off at that point. No more free rides.

Even more ominous for NYS and WNY, tomac, the gravy providers have the ability to ply their trades elsewhere.

And they're going elsewhere.

[300miles]

And the POOR DON'T NEED QUAINT HISTORIC BUILDINGS AND TRENDY CAFES... THEY NEED FREAKIN' JOBS!

I think you're missing a few links in your logic Achbek... because a new "trendy cafe" would actually create jobs. Yes?

If you're against Magic or Silver Bullets then you should be supporting small private enterprise that create jobs, whether you think it's too trendy or not.

[Timmy]

Its cheaper to re-use old buildings that it is to build new in many cases.

Look at all the housing projects downtown. They are all in re-habbed buildings. If those projects were built new there is no way that you would be getting 5+ floors of residential units and similar could be said for retail and downtown businesses in general.

The Dulski, the Statler and others would never be built new for private purposes but because they are already built they are going to find a creative re-use that adds to our community so I disagree.

I also agree that our pre-civil war era housing in the West Village is an incredibly small area that adds to our city rather than detracts from it. However, I would not hold up the new courthouse from being built or the Hotel on Elmwood so preservation does require some balancing.

Now as far as the poor are concerned. I disagree more with the method than the principle. I believe whole heartedly in a social safety net and a role for government. However, if you look at the way the BMHA competes with the private sector landlords, the house flipping of the MBBA (state agency), the destruction of neighborhoods by urban renewal, or the unions and union arbitrators that are not allowed to evaluate a municipality's ability to pay or whether people are being over compensated (according to national averages). IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE PROBLEM IS LESS ABOUT THE POOR THAN ABOUT THE BLOATED GOVERNMENT AGENCIES & UNIONS ENGORGING THEMSELVES AT THE EXPENSE OF THE POOR AND ABOUT GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS THAT SEEM TO REWARD VICTIMIZATION AND BAD CHOICES THAN PRODUCTIVE MORAL LIVES.

[biker]

Its cheaper to re-use old buildings that it is to build new in many cases.

Look at all the housing projects downtown. They are all in re-habbed buildings. If those projects were built new there is no way that you would be getting 5+ floors of residential units and similar could be said for retail and downtown businesses in general.

The Dulski, the Statler and others would never be built new for private purposes but because they are already built they are going to find a creative re-use that adds to our community so I disagree.

I also agree that our pre-civil war era housing in the West Village is an incredibly small area that adds to our city rather than detracts from it. However, I would not hold up the new courthouse from being built or the Hotel on Elmwood so preservation does require some balancing.

Now as far as the poor are concerned. I disagree more with the method than the principle. I believe whole heartedly in a social safety net and a role for government. However, if you look at the way the BMHA competes with the private sector landlords, the house flipping of the MBBA (state agency), the destruction of neighborhoods by urban renewal, or the unions and union arbitrators that are not allowed to evaluate a municipality's ability to pay or whether people are being over compensated (according to national averages). IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE PROBLEM IS LESS ABOUT THE POOR THAN ABOUT THE BLOATED GOVERNMENT AGENCIES & UNIONS ENGORGING THEMSELVES AT THE EXPENSE OF THE POOR AND ABOUT GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS THAT SEEM TO REWARD VICTIMIZATION AND BAD CHOICES THAN PRODUCTIVE MORAL LIVES.

I agree with most everything here, except that most contractors will tell you that new built is cheaper than rehab.

[LHardy]

..................... most contractors will tell you that new built is cheaper than rehab.

Give that man a cigar!

It is for all the obvious reasons. It is never cheaper to rehab an "old" existing building. It will cost just as much if not more in the long run. This is why must developers will build new versus rehab. You get the layout exactly as you want it and code requirments cost less to install.
Bottom line "new" build is cheaper.

[Timmy]

It depends on how you run the numbers. In many cases its cheaper to rehab because your running the numbers to exclude remediation and demolition, and your also running the numbers for rehab programs, low interest loans, tax abatements, etc which few new buildings would qualify.

So we disagree but it depends on how you run the numbers and to say otherwise makes you less open minded and more of an absolutist ideologue.

[Achbek1]

I think you're missing a few links in your logic Achbek... because a new "trendy cafe" would actually create jobs. Yes?

If you're against Magic or Silver Bullets then you should be supporting small private enterprise that create jobs, whether you think it's too trendy or not.

Fair enough, but what I actually mean is we need a combination of both... And too often it seems as if those who support the small, trendy establishments are the same ones who vehemently oppose large chain businesses...

I think the key is having BOTH.

But if you look a numbers, we are desperate for jobs here. And one large "big box" store could employ 200 people whereas one little trendy cafe might only employ 20 people...

I think there needs to be a mix of BOTH kinds of development.

Soon.

[biker]

You can't work logic with these people, Achebek. They're against the current faddish, evil conglomerate du decade.

In the 80's it was MacDonalds
In the 90s, it was Microsoft
In the "oughts" it's Walmart

What ever is big and profitable and successful must, perforce, be evil.

And, therefore, must be vilified.

[Achbek1]

You can't work logic with these people, Achebek. They're against the current faddish, evil conglomerate du decade.

In the 80's it was MacDonalds
In the 90s, it was Microsoft
In the "oughts" it's Walmart

What ever is big and profitable and successful must, perforce, be evil.

And, therefore, must be vilified.

Then could it be said they are de facto supporters of poverty?

Huh?

If they are so against something that might, heaven forbid, employ people?

[biker]

I think you're back to the people whom you said cause you some discomfort. The quirky protestor people.

For some reason, they have the itch to drag down the successful.

In the eighties, they dumped on MacDonalds until they became mediocre.
In the nineties, they dumped on Microsoft until it became mediocre
Now, they're dumping on Walmart.

I wonder which company will be the target in the teens?

[wheresthesun]

Exactly! Right now there are two major **** EYED views about "magic bullets" to "save" Buffalo.

The one "magic bullet" view is the CASINO.

The other "magic bullet" view is HISTORIC PRESERVATION.

These two groups have been so loud and have gained so much political clout yet I find it frightening that we are taking either of these groups as seriously as some do. Heck, even Byron Brown was swayed to the pro casino side... Because of the "well, it will bring JOBS" factor.

But with Buffalo's "fragile population" as one politician described it (I think it may have even been Joel Giambra... imagine that) a casino would bring more violence, crime and social ills...

I think that our economic revitalization (or maybe using the term "revitalization" here is too generous, more like "bringing it back from the dead" would be better) needs to be more REALISTIC and METHODIC.

We need to be realistic in terms of seeing our city as what it really is: a mostly poor, declining, economically suffering burnt out shell of a municipality. And now add 70 MURDERS A YEAR to the mix... There ARE some upscale and trendy parts of Buffalo, but face it folks THOSE AREAS ARE THE MINORITY... And even Elmwood, North Buffalo and the Delaware Districts are not immune to the effect of their neighborhoods surrounding poverty. When I lived on Elmwood I had my apartment and my car broken into within the same month... The crack heads were so desperate that they used to STEAL CHRISTMAS CARDS OUT OF OUR MAILBOX AND OPEN THEM TO SEE IF THERE WAS ANY MONEY IN THEM. Even the "upscale" areas are located within walking distance of really bad and really poverty and violence stricken neighborhoods... NO ONE CAN DENY THAT.

So first we need to say, "Hey! We are gonna do what we can to bring in some kind of businesses... Any kind of businesss... As a start." Even if we have to BEGIN with WALGREEENS and (I can't believe I'm saying this but) a freakin' WAL MART or SAM'S CLUB we need to do someting... In the world of choosing the lesser or two evils I'd rather see a WAL MART than a CASINO...

Also, being realistic means that we need to realize that the poor and disenfranchised are bringing the whole city down with them and that segment needs to be rehabilitated first.

STATISTICS SHOW THAT THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF THE ERIE COUNTY BUDGET GOES TO SOCIAL SERVICES. That shows that supporting the poverty stricken is making the rest of us poor. I lost my job with Erie County because of it.

And the POOR DON'T NEED QUAINT HISTORIC BUILDINGS AND TRENDY CAFES... THEY NEED FREAKIN' JOBS!

In terms of being methodic, we need to start from the bottom up... Immediately knock down the old burnt out buildings and crack houses... But back on out of town real estate flippers... We need to allow whatever business or development that wants to open here to open... Hotel, high rise, drug store, etc... JUST LET THEM OPEN! Because each thing that opens will bring in a tax base or a job...

I'm sorry if I went all Dennis Miller on you here, it's just that as a someone who is only in her early 30s, I have seen so much decline in our area and I hate to see how every year it gets worse and worse...

I guess Bass Pro is no longer considered one of the magic bullets, is that true? Strange though, as the State Donavan Building was just evacuated in order to destruct and create parking for said fish store.

[concernedwnyer]

I guess Bass Pro is no longer considered one of the magic bullets, is that true? Strange though, as the State Donavan Building was just evacuated in order to destruct and create parking for said fish store.

Bass Pro was suppose to have made an announcement on the decision they made in regard to the Aud. It has already been determineduilding.. that the Aud will be coming down..... Perhaps three generations from now but better late than never....

What I do not understand is why those knuckle heads keep coming back to look at the Aud???? Do they want to get another look at the bathroom stalls??? I would not be a bit surprised if we are paying for their flights down here to look at the Aud again. again, and again.

We need to put pressure on Higgins, the common council and the E C dev. corp to cut the ties and just level the damn building and sell the prime property spot. If the fish store wants it then they buy the land build the building and pay taxes so they could sell there canoes and bows and arrows.This arrangement is just as bad as the Casino arrangement.

[Downstate Buffaloian]

Exactly!

We need to be realistic in terms of seeing our city as what it really is: a mostly poor, declining, economically suffering burnt out shell of a municipality. And now add 70 MURDERS A YEAR to the mix... There ARE some upscale and trendy parts of Buffalo, but face it folks THOSE AREAS ARE THE MINORITY... And even Elmwood, North Buffalo and the Delaware Districts are not immune to the effect of their neighborhoods surrounding poverty. When I lived on Elmwood I had my apartment and my car broken into within the same month... The crack heads were so desperate that they used to STEAL CHRISTMAS CARDS OUT OF OUR MAILBOX AND OPEN THEM TO SEE IF THERE WAS ANY MONEY IN THEM. Even the "upscale" areas are located within walking distance of really bad and really poverty and violence stricken neighborhoods... NO ONE CAN DENY THAT.

So first we need to say, "Hey! We are gonna do what we can to bring in some kind of businesses... Any kind of businesss... As a start." Even if we have to BEGIN with WALGREEENS and (I can't believe I'm saying this but) a freakin' WAL MART or SAM'S CLUB we need to do someting... In the world of choosing the lesser or two evils I'd rather see a WAL MART than a CASINO...

Also, being realistic means that we need to realize that the poor and disenfranchised are bringing the whole city down with them and that segment needs to be rehabilitated first.

STATISTICS SHOW THAT THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF THE ERIE COUNTY BUDGET GOES TO SOCIAL SERVICES. That shows that supporting the poverty stricken is making the rest of us poor. I lost my job with Erie County because of it.

And the POOR DON'T NEED QUAINT HISTORIC BUILDINGS AND TRENDY CAFES... THEY NEED FREAKIN' JOBS!

In terms of being methodic, we need to start from the bottom up... Immediately knock down the old burnt out buildings and crack houses... But back on out of town real estate flippers... We need to allow whatever business or development that wants to open here to open... Hotel, high rise, drug store, etc... JUST LET THEM OPEN! Because each thing that opens will bring in a tax base or a job...

I'm sorry if I went all Dennis Miller on you here, it's just that as a someone who is only in her early 30s, I have seen so much decline in our area and I hate to see how every year it gets worse and worse...

Achbek, I'm also in my early 30's and I've seen the area decline from a "real" city with a vibrant downtown and solid ethnic working class neighborhoods into a ghetto with a few pockets of old-money upper middle class. Unfortunately, I'm sorry to say but the decline is permenant and there will never be a strong middle or well paid working class in the city again. The problem is not what is done in the local area but what our economic policy is on a national and international level.

Back in the early 1970's the elite decided that the middle class and unionized working class was making too much money and had too much leasure time on their hands and were becoming a threat to their power. Environmental laws and labor regulations were also stifling their profit margin. The rich in the 1945-1973 era struggled compared to the obscene amounts of wealth they had in the 1920's before the Great Depression and the New Deal. They decided that they could build their goods at a lower cost overseas and not have to worry about troublesome environmental regulations and labor unions. Thus starting in the 1970's they closed plants in the U.S. and opened them in places like Mexico, China, and the Phillipiines. At first this caused massive unemployment in the old industrial cities, however this eased as many of these unemployed people moved south. Why did they move south? because the Regan Revolution of the 1980's created a new economy based on sunbelt suburban sprawl and borrowed money defense spending (a majority of bases are in the sunbelt). The raw growth caused by people moving from the north to the south artificially created tons of service jobs. They didn't pay well but the cost of living in the sunbelt was so low that it didn't matter. The cost of consumer goods decreased signifcantly. So a person could afford a big screen TV and IPOD even if they lacked health insurance. The values of the society shifted from having a sole breadwinner with stable employment, high wages and good benefits to having multiple low-income earners with no benefits but have lots of consumer goods (it fit in well with feminism and the new materialism of the baby boomer generation) (Not coincidentally, this was also the time when the Democratic party's emphasis moved from representing the needs and interests of the working class to those of the socially liberal elite). Since profit margins increased greatly the number of wealthy people exploded and their influence on government greatly increased, all while median household income stagnated (even with more workers per household) Meanwhile more and more manufacturers left the industrial cities of the north leaving their citizens and governments increasingly bankrupt (they also left an industrial legacy of toxic waste that still haunts us today)

Some of the larger International Cities like New York, Chicago and Toronto benefitted greatly from this new setup as they are the command and control Centers of the new economy with plenty of international headquarters and wealthy citizens earning dividends in the booming stock market. Regional centers like Atlanta, Denver and Phoenix thrived because they received huge amounts of migrants fleeing the north (see sprawl economy above) and their rural hinterlands that were deindustrialized (think rural southern mill towns).

In the 1990's wages started to creep up in the service sector. So, in order to correct this little problem the government (backed by the interests big business) decided to stop defending our southern border. These illegal immigrants flooded the market and lowered wages in the service and construction sectors. They also increased the price of real estate which helped longtime homeowners but made it difficult for traditional native born middle-class nuclear families to own a home in some of these booming areas (unless they were willing to live in close proxmity to these new immigrants which often have 4 or more incomes in extended families in order to afford a home in these areas, and these immigrants decreased the quality of the schools and raised the taxes for English as a second language programs).

This all went along well until the mid 00's until we reached a point where the sprawl as growth machine has broken down. Housing prices in these booming areas has reached a point where they are starting to decline. Homeowners can no longer count on constantly raising housing prices to supplement their incomes by borrowing from their home equity loans. The prices continue to decline now matter how many new immigrants move to that city. Cheap energy is gone making all those McMansions expensive to heat and too far away to commute to economically. America is now dependant on foriegn goods and foriegn sources of energy and is now so indebted to China and Japan all in a fruitless attempt to maintain prosperity in the face of deindustrialization.

Places like Buffalo or Flint Michigan, Rochester, Syracuse, Utica, Dayton, OH, Detroit, Pittsburgh are not needed in the global economy. Manufacturing will not come back. No other industry will provide the value added jobs that Buffalo once had. The only hope is growth in professional jobs and headquarters jobs l(ike at HSBC and M&T) in fields such as finance, law, engineering, graphic arts, marketing, etc. The only hope for working class people is to get some of the spin off service jobs created by the salaries of these professionals. That is why I am so in favor of making more of the city like Elmwood Avenue. People in these professions tend to like hip urban environments and those that like the suburbs like cosmopolitan suburbs like Amherst. They don't want rundown areas (Riverside, East Side, etc.) or bland declining traditional suburbs like Cheektowaga.

I agree that Buffalo is a horrible situation. However, you must see that this is really a national economic problem. It only stands to get worse if energy costs skyrocket and the southern sprawl cities become unsustainable and join the rustbelt in decline. That will leave only a few select cities in North America such the New York Toronto and Chicago that will have stable economies. This is the course the elite have layed out for the country. If you honestly think that the multi-millionaires (that live within a few miles of where I live on Long Island, so I know what they think) really care about this country and cities like Buffalo then I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'm willing to sell you. They are globally oriented and pretty much think that outside a few pockets that this country should be left to rot.