What would you do with the One Seneca Tower

Preparing for 38 floors of emptiness at One Seneca Tower

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-regi...tower-20131117


One comment said they would like to see it turned into housing. Make the arrangements affordable for ordinary people.

"make affordable" and what defines "ordinary people"?

Is it possible?

38 floors of office space.

18,000 square feet of open space per floor

684,000 sq feet.

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http://buffalo.craigslist.org/apa/4199406223.html


2 bdrm. Starting at $695 Approximate 1000 SF, _ _ _ _ _
1 Bedroom starting at $595*,

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I just wanted to see what size some apartments are.

So for $695 you get 1000 SF. Is $695 considered affordable rent for ordinary people?

If you had 684,000 square feet you could build 684 1000 sq foot apartments. Well not really because you would need hallways to get to each one.

Think you could build 500 1000 sqr foot units on 38 floors?

I'm just figuring.. 500 units X $695 monthly = $347,500 a month gross income.

I wonder how much it would cost to build out 500 units. Didn't we hear some hud apartment cost $150,000 each to build? 500 X $150,000 = $75,000,000 million.

If you borrowed $75,000,000 for 30 years at 0% interest your monthly payment would be $208,333 a month against your $347,500 gross profit leaving you $139,167 a month. I wonder what property/school tax would be on that building. You need to deduct that from the $139,167 a month. I wonder what other cost goes into running that building to calculate what each of the 38 floors would cost to operate a month.

And would the inner apartments have no windows? Or would apartments only be built along the window areas leaving a central area open.

One floor's central area could be one large child day care center. Ordinary people work right? Gotta have economical day care. 500 apartments could mean at least 1 kid per apartment. 500 kids.

http://www.babycenter.com/0_how-much...are_1199776.bc

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How much do daycare centers cost?

Childcare for babies and toddlers
While your child is in the baby and toddler stages, you'll pay more. That's because kids this age need more hands-on care and so the center must hire more caregivers. The average cost of center-based daycare in the United States is $11,666 per year ($972 a month), but prices range from $3,582 to $18,773 a year ($300 to $1,564 monthly), according to the National Association of Child Care Resource & Referral Agencies (NACCRRA). Parents report higher costs – up to $2,000 a month for infant care – in cities like Boston and San Francisco.

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Originally Posted by WNYresident

Preparing for 38 floors of emptiness at One Seneca Tower

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-regi...tower-20131117


One comment said they would like to see it turned into housing. Make the arrangements affordable for ordinary people.

"make affordable" and what defines "ordinary people"?

Is it possible?

38 floors of office space.

18,000 square feet of open space per floor

684,000 sq feet.




I just wanted to see what size some apartments are.

So for $695 you get 1000 SF. Is $695 considered affordable rent for ordinary people?

If you had 684,000 square feet you could build 684 1000 sq foot apartments. Well not really because you would need hallways to get to each one.

Think you could build 500 1000 sqr foot units on 38 floors?

I'm just figuring.. 500 units X $695 monthly = $347,500 a month gross income.

I wonder how much it would cost to build out 500 units. Didn't we hear some hud apartment cost $150,000 each to build? 500 X $150,000 = $75,000,000 million.

If you borrowed $75,000,000 for 30 years at 0% interest your monthly payment would be $208,333 a month against your $347,500 gross profit leaving you $139,167 a month. I wonder what property/school tax would be on that building. You need to deduct that from the $139,167 a month. I wonder what other cost goes into running that building to calculate what each of the 38 floors would cost to operate a month.

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Rent for Depew and Downtown Buffalo are very different. Considering the height of the building, the location and the view, at base it would get a great deal more. It would need to be geared toward luxury apartments. "Ordinary people" are not going to flock to live in the heart of downtown.

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Originally Posted by WNYresident

And would the inner apartments have no windows? Or would apartments only be built along the window areas leaving a central area open.

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Think that one through for a minute.

The biggest challenge I see for the building is Seneca One Realty LLC purchased the tower in 2005 for about $93 million and put about $83 million of debt on the property, according to documents related to the debt offering. With all of the development that has happened in the last 8 years, in addition to, the lack of need for that much office space in the DT core the building is worth nowhere near that. For a comparison, One CanalSide (Former Donovan building) was redone for $30M.

IMHO, the BEST thing that can happen is for Buffalo is for the owners to default on the building and have it be purchased for the current market value. This would allow for more reuse options. That said, I am assuming the guys behind Seneca One (Mark Karasick and Victor Gerstein) have connections to Albany and will be seeking some form of a bailout.


As for what should/could be done with the building if you remove the issues related to Seneca One, I think keeping it as office space would be idea. A small business tech incubator would do wonders for the economy of the region. How that would be financed is the big question. Converting the biggest item in the skyline to affordable housing, is IMHO, the worst thing that could be done with the property. Just so many levels of bad on that.

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Originally Posted by TheDude

Think that one through for a minute.

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I did. At least I think I did. I looked with google maps and didn't see an open center to the structure.


18,000 square feet per floor means you have about 135 feet X 135 feet ~ 18,000 square feet to work with. Right? I can not recall ever being in the building. Or the building is more like 150 X 150 with a center area for piping/elevators.

I quickly drew up what I meant by an open center.

You either have about 135 X 135 giving you about 18,000 square feet. Or, you could have about 150 X 150 with an open center as shown below. If the area was open you can have windows.

I think it should be subsidized senior living. Every old person in western yew nork deserves a free ride.

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Originally Posted by WNYresident

I did. At least I think I did. I looked with google maps and didn't see an open center to the structure.


18,000 square feet per floor means you have about 135 feet X 135 feet ~ 18,000 square feet to work with. Right? I can not recall ever being in the building. Or the building is more like 150 X 150 with a center area for piping/elevators.

I quickly drew up what I meant by an open center.

You either have about 135 X 135 giving you about 18,000 square feet. Or, you could have about 150 X 150 with an open center as shown below. If the area was open you can have windows.

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You're not considering the elevator shafts or stairs.

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Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS

As for what should/could be done with the building if you remove the issues related to Seneca One, I think keeping it as office space would be idea. A small business tech incubator would do wonders for the economy of the region. How that would be financed is the big question. Converting the biggest item in the skyline to affordable housing, is IMHO, the worst thing that could be done with the property. Just so many levels of bad on that.

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Totally agree and that was why I was playing with numbers. I would put nothing past groups of people that will spend community tax money on costly projects. If they can skim a chunk for themselves they will never have an issue spending someone's money.

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Originally Posted by WNYresident

Totally agree and that was why I was playing with numbers. I would put nothing past groups of people that will spend community tax money on costly projects. If they can skim a chunk for themselves they will never have an issue spending someone's money.

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Looks like the paper changed hands - http://www.wkbw.com/news/local/One-S...230980561.html

The $74.5 million mortgage connected to the One Seneca Tower has been shifted to a financial work-out specialist firm whose niche is in major real estate holdings. According to U.S. CMBS Daily Special website, Berkadia Commercial Mortgage, which held the loan covering the 38-story downtown Buffalo landmark, shifted the mortgage to CW Capital Asset Management, a special service of potentially troubled real estate loans and holdings. CMBS cited "imminent default" for the switch to CW Capital. The transfer was reported on Nov. 5. This also mentioned a very large ballon payment due February 2015.


Also said:

With the building virtually empty, save for a handful of remaining tenants, Seneca One representatives have been working with Buffalo officials on various development scenarios for the towering structure that dominates the downtown Buffalo skyline. Earlier this year, a team of experts from the Urban Land Institute suggested some form of mixed-use tenant composition may be its best option. Possible options could include a residential component, a hotel, restaurants and some Class A office space.

Any future development scenario would likely require a heavy public sector subsidy or abatement package. Neither the City of Buffalo or Erie County have committed to a firm incentive offer, both citing they want to see a definitive development plan.


I hope they block that but I really don't see how the city or county would be able to even offer a package.

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Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS

You're not considering the elevator shafts or stairs.

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If you re-read post 1 you see I mentioned

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If you had 684,000 square feet you could build 684 1000 sq foot apartments. Well not really because you would need hallways to get to each one.

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I should have added more than just hallways. Elevators etc...

So I figure maybe get in 500 units versus 684 1000 square foot units.

Only thing that triggered me to think about it was:

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One comment said they would like to see it turned into housing. Make the arrangements affordable for ordinary people.

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I could picture a group of people from the www.ecdems.com trying to push for something like this. Promise "affordable apartments" which usually means subsidized by other people to offset the costs. But then on the other hand we would have the republican pushing for any and all tax incentives to push something like that through.

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Originally Posted by nickelcityhomes

I think it should be subsidized senior living. Every old person in western yew nork deserves a free ride.

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What about younger people? They are people no less than old people. Don't they deserve to live in apartments with awesome city views?

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What about younger people? They are people no less than old people. Don't they deserve to live in apartments with awesome city views?

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They already have subsidized housing. It's called the Erie County Holding Center. It's not my fault if they don't take advantage of the free handout.

As for everyone else, pound sand.

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Originally Posted by WNYresident

So I figure maybe get in 500 units versus 684 1000 square foot units.

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Converting the largest Office tower to residential would be horrible to the perception of the region. Think about how that would look to outsiders.

Conversation..

Someone from out of town: What is in that large ugly tower?
Someone from Buffalo: It used to be an international bank but now it's low income housing. When the towered emptied they could not fill it with companies so they converted it to residential.
Someone from out of town: Oh. That's......nice I guess.

On the flip side, say the most visible tower in the city was used as a business incubator for startups and high tech companies.

Someone from out of town: What is in that large ugly tower?
Someone from Buffalo: It used to be an international bank but it's a small business incubator that focuses on tech startups. Companies go there for their first couple of years to collaborate with similar businesses. Instead of a 'valley' we have a silicon tower.
Someone from out of town: Wow. That's is pretty freaking cool.

I'm just playing devils advocate. There really is not way to make low income housing without someone else footing the bill. We have more than enough of that now in Erie County/NYS.

Affordable Housing doesn't make any sense here. They need to make money on this place so if there's any residential it should be extreme-luxury condos. If they go that route they could follow a similar plan that Avant did: Some Residential; Some Hotel; some Office; some Retail.

Starting from the top: Take the highest 2 floors and make it banquet space and public restaurant again. The next 10 floors down could be luxury condos... 4 to 6 huge apartments per floor possibly selling for ~ 1 million each. The next 10 floors below that could be hotel rooms. The 14 floors below that would remain office space (upgraded to prime class-A space). Then the 2 floors on the ground would be lobby space with a restaurant and some retail. The outer walls of the plaza could be opened up as street retail shops facing Main St and Canalside. This would make the building part of all the new developments nearby. Another possibility is relocating the Seneca St metro stop to the base of the tower and include a modern metro station in the design. The first-floor retail could be integrated into the metro station. Imagine having the train stop right at the ground floor of your apartment/office/hotel-room... pretty cool.

Do you think you could get enough people to rent it out? If you all haven't noticed the population hasn't been increasing in Erie County. IF you fill it will businesses/people already establish here you are only emptying other buildings in our community. What do you do with that vacant space?

If true Class A office space is as limited as people say, then I'm sure some local company would relocate there after it's been upgraded. If that ends up emptying out someone else's building - it's a problem, but it's not Seneca One's problem.

(And everyone that supported tax breaks for Delaware North to move around the block certainly wouldn't mind some tax breaks for someone to move here too. [sarcastic smiley])

Some local companies are growing. Look at First Niagara and M&T. There is a need for office space.

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If true Class A office space is as limited as people say, then I'm sure some local company would relocate there after it's been upgraded. If that ends up emptying out someone else's building - it's a problem, but it's not Seneca One's problem.

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Not one penny of tax payers money or "incentives" should go to help because "it's not the net tax payers problem".

It's a dinosaur, implode it and build a modern structure

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Originally Posted by 300miles

If true Class A office space is as limited as people say, then I'm sure some local company would relocate there after it's been upgraded. If that ends up emptying out someone else's building - it's a problem, but it's not Seneca One's problem.

(And everyone that supported tax breaks for Delaware North to move around the block certainly wouldn't mind some tax breaks for someone to move here too. [sarcastic smiley])

Some local companies are growing. Look at First Niagara and M&T. There is a need for office space.

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Everything that I have had read says Class A space in the COB is in excess. Where are you hearing it's limited? Not only is this tower going dark but with DN moving, I read that the South tower in the Key Center is going dark as well.

As for the tax breaks, are you suggesting that there should be resources made available to just the companies who might expand or consolidate in the tower or to the developers who made a bad real estate bet? Pretty big difference there in my opinion.

As for the banks, I really don't think either FNG or M&T would move to either One Seneca Center or Key Center for some pretty obvious branding issues.

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Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS

Everything that I have had read says Class A space in the COB is in excess. Where are you hearing it's limited? Not only is this tower going dark but with DN moving, I read that the South tower in the Key Center is going dark as well.

As for the tax breaks, are you suggesting that there should be resources made available to just the companies who might expand or consolidate in the tower or to the developers who made a bad real estate bet? Pretty big difference there in my opinion.

As for the banks, I really don't think either FNG or M&T would move to either One Seneca Center or Key Center for some pretty obvious branding issues.

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Not one penny of tax payers money or "incentives" should go to help because "it's not the net tax payers problem". :)

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Originally Posted by WNYresident

Not one penny of tax payers money or "incentives" should go to help because "it's not the net tax payers problem". :)

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So you're saying that if a company in the region wanted to consolidate offices in the tower, and by doing so, spent a lot of money refurbishing the space and purchase new materials for the office...they should not be entitled to any form of tax relief?

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Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS

So you're saying that if a company in the region wanted to consolidate offices in the tower, and by doing so, spent a lot of money refurbishing the space and purchase new materials for the office...they should not be entitled to any form of tax relief?

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Why?

Think about it.

What if that company competes with other local companies? Will they got some incentives besides the company relocating? Why should any of their tax money go to a company who competes against them? Why should those competing companies pay the full shot while the company relocating receives a discount? That is not a level playing field.

What about the property owners who may be renting to those companies that would relocate. They will end up with vacant buildings because of the incentives. That isn't a net gain except for the IDA's that skim their salaries by doing the paper work for the incentives.

We all get tax relief or no one does. All we are doing as a community is enabling what the controlling political parties do.

Only instance I could see some tax relief only on the ONE SHOT items is if a company relocates from out of state to Buffalo. They still pay their full share of what ever the property taxes are on the property. I could see mortgage taxes and sales taxes waved away because those would have never happened in the first place. But then again I wouldn't give any breaks if the company would complete with pre existing businesses already located here.

Let the people who hold the paper on the building lose out at it should be. They will think twice next business deal they do.

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Originally Posted by WNYresident

What if that company competes with other local companies? Will they got some incentives besides the company relocating? Why should any of their tax money go to a company who competes against them? Why should those competing companies pay the full shot while the company relocating receives a discount? That is not a level playing field.

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You're right. It's not level. One company is expanding, which adds a mix of jobs and taxable items, and the other is not. I have zero issue with tax breaks on items that help grow the region. The differences between a handout and a tax break are massive and should be a separate thread.

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Originally Posted by WNYresident

What about the property owners who may be renting to those companies that would relocate. They will end up with vacant buildings because of the incentives. That isn't a net gain except for the IDA's that skim their salaries by doing the paper work for the incentives.

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This is a good question. I'll just add some thoughs

• That's real estate. How many property owners sell their home for a profit or charge more in rent simply because the desirability of their location has improved. It's all a part of the game.
• If a property owner is in a hot market, does he keep his rates the same? No. He would increase his rent because he can.
• I am more focused on the company than the property owner. It's not the responsibility of the renter to ensure a owner has his property filled. Going further, if a company leaves, I think the property owner should be allowed access to tax breaks if he wants to invest in his space to make it more desirable.
• What about the property owners who purposely keep units empty so they can play with the numbers and write off the expense as a tax deduction?
• The 'NET GAIN' is that through tax breaks things are added to the economy.
• Realize you're in WNY and a zero tolerance stance is just as bad as a tax to death stance.

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Originally Posted by WNYresident

We all get tax relief or no one does. All we are doing as a community is enabling what the controlling political parties do.

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Everyone has the right to tax relief but some are more willing to do what's necessary to get it. You complain about the taxes in Cheektowaga but still live there. You should move, just like a company would.
The political parties control because they are empowered by the voters. If you don't like the amount of say you have...move.

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Originally Posted by WNYresident

Only instance I could see some tax relief only on the ONE SHOT items is if a company relocates from out of state to Buffalo. They still pay their full share of what ever the property taxes are on the property. I could see mortgage taxes and sales taxes waved away because those would have never happened in the first place. But then again I wouldn't give any breaks if the company would complete with pre existing businesses already located here.

Let the people who hold the paper on the building lose out at it should be. They will think twice next business deal they do.

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The problem with this is it does NOTHING to keep companies from staying in the region. In case you missed it...that's a bit of a challenge the last 50 years or so.

What you also fail to grasp is companies provide jobs. A homeowner does not. Take on the risk if you want the rewards.

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WNYresident View Post
What about the property owners who may be renting to those companies that would relocate. They will end up with vacant buildings because of the incentives. That isn't a net gain except for the IDA's that skim their salaries by doing the paper work for the incentives.

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This is a good question. I'll just add some thoughs

That's real estate. How many property owners sell their home for a profit or charge more in rent simply because the desirability of their location has improved. It's all a part of the game.
If a property owner is in a hot market, does he keep his rates the same? No. He would increase his rent because he can.
I am more focused on the company than the property owner. It's not the responsibility of the renter to ensure a owner has his property filled. Going further, if a company leaves, I think the property owner should be allowed access to tax breaks if he wants to invest in his space to make it more desirable.
What about the property owners who purposely keep units empty so they can play with the numbers and write off the expense as a tax deduction?
The 'NET GAIN' is that through tax breaks things are added to the economy.
Realize you're in WNY and a zero tolerance stance is just as bad as a tax to death stance.

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But those home owners are not given tax incentives or grants on their property.

It isn't the responsibility of other property owners (net tax payers)to ensure that someone else's property is filled. You know what Buffalo was great? When people were allowed to fail. They would lose their shorts and another person in Buffalo would buy what was left over. No incentives, no grants, no nothing. Then you would see the true value of what property is.

I have no issue with someone saving on the sales tax to remodel their home or property. BUT everyone receives that not a select few. Even if it means the guy who is updating his bathroom in his home or the business owner updating their storefront.

If those property owners are paying the full shot of property taxes that they should they can do anything they want with their property. Once again if these loop holes weren't allowed you would see what the true value of the property is.

What net gain? One person's gain is another person's loss. One business's gain is another business's loss unless they are exporting something out of state. We have not had population growth in Erie County for years. If you noticed we do have some population churn. Replacing net income earners with people who are on the dole is not progress or economic gain.

I know I'm in WNY. Buffalo used to be an economic power house. If you look back though time you can see the damage political parties have caused in our community. In my opinion the party that has cause the most damage locally is the www.ecdems.com.

Their policies have hurt business growth and increased the cost of doing business in our state. People are not leaving because of floods, earthquakes, locust or animal stampedes. They are leaving because they need jobs and businesses leave because there are other states that are far less costly to operate.

Lastly. It is not the net tax payers responsibility to pay for "government inc" incompetence.

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http://www.speakupwny.com/forums/ima...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by WNYresident http://www.speakupwny.com/forums/ima...post-right.png

We all get tax relief or no one does. All we are doing as a community is enabling what the controlling political parties do.

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Everyone has the right to tax relief but some are more willing to do what's necessary to get it. You complain about the taxes in Cheektowaga but still live there. You should move, just like a company would.
The political parties control because they are empowered by the voters. If you don't like the amount of say you have...move.

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Working on it. I don't see enough value received for what we pay in property taxes to live in Cheektowaga. I'll make up my mind once we see how the new makeup of our town board operates. I have ask Vicki about moving back into the City solely based on property taxes. We could move farther out but if you have noticed I'm more of a Buffalo supporter.

First step 2014, no political party officer will work for our town. Period. I beleive Angela did write a resolution to be voted on this topic but neither our businessmen seconded it. I was told even if they did second it there wasn't enough votes to pass it. Now we have Angela, Charley, Diane and Jerry on our town board. That is 4 votes. I guess it is time to see who gives lip service or not.

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Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS

Everything that I have had read says Class A space in the COB is in excess. Where are you hearing it's limited? Not only is this tower going dark but with DN moving, I read that the South tower in the Key Center is going dark as well.

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From what I've seen, some large companies in Buffalo's Class-A office space are keen to jump ship for a brand new building that has better amenities...suggesting that not all Class-A space is created equal... or that Class-A circa 1990 or 1970 is not on par with Class-A from 2012, at least not without major improvements to update them first.

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Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS

As for the tax breaks, are you suggesting that there should be resources made available to just the companies who might expand or consolidate in the tower or to the developers who made a bad real estate bet? Pretty big difference there in my opinion.

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I suggested neither. Seneca One needs to deal with their own investment decisions. And incentives for other companies to expand into the tower would need to consider whether the incentive has a good return on it, in the form of real growth to our economy (instead of someone playing musical chairs, just to leave their previous location empty.)

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Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS

As for the banks, I really don't think either FNG or M&T would move to either One Seneca Center or Key Center for some pretty obvious branding issues.

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That's a good point regarding other local banks and you might be right. Although there are examples where it's been done... like the RenCen in Detroit which was largely funded by Ford family and was used for Ford office space for years, before GM bought it and turned it into their world headquarters. But I doubt any of our local banks would jump at the HSBC tower unless it was totally renovated into a completely different and more modern building. (by comparison, the RenCen still looks very modern today even though it was built in the 70's)

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Originally Posted by WNYresident

But those home owners are not given tax incentives or grants on their property.

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There was a proposal a couple of years ago to give property tax breaks on improvements that increased the property values of homes, but Chris Collins opposed it when he was County Executive.

Chris isn't perfect. I wouldn't give people property tax breaks for improvements. I said I wouldn't mind if one shot type taxes were waved away. Why? Because those wouldn't have happened anyways without the improvements. Like sales tax on items used in the improvements etc.

We need to abolish IDA's for the most part in Erie County or better yet NYS.

We don't need them. As Miles put it, musical chairs.