Which location would be the best site for the Buffalo Bills’ stadium?

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Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS

Honest question, just how is it even possible to calculate a return on investment for things like this? Beyond that, is there anything that does provide a 1:1 return or better for taxpayers?

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That is one issue. It's tough to calculate a positive return on investment so it shouldn't be sold as a good investment from the start.

A government "project" is not supposed to return at 1:1 in some cases but an "arena" isn't a government item the community needs. If the entertainment dollars weren't spent on football tickets it may be spent at other venues.

There are hard facts to review.

How much property tax (guaranteed) is generated by the stadium based off the subsidy given? That is a positive revenue stream.

How much (non-guaranteed) taxes are generated by ticket sales and on items sold directly from the stadium? Taxes on concessions and gifts purchased. I'm assuming sales tax or some form of taxes are added to everything and anything sold at a stadium.

If you think about it the Bills were in 4 super bowls. How did that affect the local economy here? Did it help pull money into the area?

I do think it's awesome that Wilson started the non-profit to help organizations in WNY. I wonder if in the long run we will get more back than what we invested by the tax payers in the current stadium.

Keeping the team at the Ralph is like keeping a "tradition" going. Same as if the old Aud was still in use. Nothing is wrong with the Arena but with name changes it really never becomes a tradition as all the memories did to those who went to the Aud. If it was me I would have named the new arena the same as the old arena to keep the "tradition" alive. You could have always added a "sponsored by"
along the bottom of the sign.

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Originally Posted by WNYresident

If you think about it the Bills were in 4 super bowls. How did that affect the local economy here? Did it help pull money into the area?

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Like it or not, the only reason for many people that Buffalo is even known or thought of is because of the Bills. The only reason Buffalo is not considered an equal to Rochester, rather than a step above, is because it has the Bills. Those 4 Super Bowl losses are the only thing many people even know about Buffalo. As they say, it's better to be known for something than to not be known at all. It's the price you pay to not being forgotten.

Albuquerque NM, Tucson AZ, Fresno CA, Long Beach CA, Mesa AZ, Virginia Beach VA, Omaha NE, Colorado Springs CO, Tulsa OK, Wichita KS, Bakersfield CA, Aurora CO, Santa Ana CA, Corpus Christi TX, Riverside CA, Lexington KY, Stockton CA, Anchorage AK, Greensboro NC, Toledo OH, Plano TX, Henderson NV, Jersey City NJ, Chula Vista CA

These are all cities that are bigger, many more than twice the size, of Buffalo. Yet if you ask a typical American to list off the cities in the US they are going to get to Buffalo before these places 9 times out of 10. Why? Brand identity.

Beyond that, how many people do you see with Frank Lloyd Wright, Albright Knox or Shea's tattoos? Personally I think tattoos are silly but people ink their body to show their identity. Like it or not, the Bills are a part of the community identity. At times, it's the only thing someone in Amherst or Lancaster has in common with the person from the First Ward or North Buffalo. So having something that the community comes together around, good or bad, comes at a price.

Some things you just pay for to have and you don't look to quantify a return.

People like to say that Buffalo is Rising and love to talk about how many cool things are happening. You hear people talk about #Buffalove with pride...even if you want to mock them while they do. But at the end of the day there is nothing unique about what is happening in Buffalo. Every city in the US has similar. People talk about architecture tourism as if having a restored FLW house is something special. They are wrong, the Darwin Martin House does not even make every list of his best works.

But there are just 32 cities that have an NFL team. There are 30 cities that have an NHL team, 30 with a MLB team and 30 with a NBA team. Of all of those, only a handful have more than 2 professional teams. Buffalo, holding on for dear life, is one of them. You simply don't let go of that.

To put it another way...ask yourself an honest question of what would the identity of Buffalo be without pro sports? Just what would people think Buffalo is. Snow. Snow is the only other thing that people on a national basis know about Buffalo. Rust Belt is another term that may come to mind. It's the price you pay to not be considered a former city. it's the price you pay to not just be considered a place it snows. It's the price you pay for people to know where you are on the map.


Without using the internet or a map...ask yourself if you know where Fresno CA, Greensboro NC or Chula Vista CA is? Ask yourself if you can name anything of significance about Stockton CA, Plano TX or Wichita KS. I would bet you can't. That's not a bad thing but it's expected. Yet each of these places has a larger population, a better economy and most importantly is growing at a much faster pace than Buffalo.

Each of these places has history and hipsters. Each of these places has a blog like Buffalo Rising that talks about what's cool. Each of these places matters. But right now, each of these places by and large is unknown and Buffalo isn't.

Like it or not, that's the price you pay.



- post script - I could go on about how a stadium can actually build out the tax base but went off on this theme during my morning coffee......

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Originally Posted by BorderBob

Without looking at the video.....we have not done inspections, on the train, in probably 15-20 years. That said, you are absolutely correct about the viability of the train from either direction.

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Interesting. Maybe it's a secondary check. Really difficult to find info.

I understand why but the need for a passport hurts this a bit. I've read that just under 50% of Americans have one and just under 60% of Canadians have one. That's a lot of people on the sidelines.

That said, I think Terry had a similar vision for how the Amtrak would be used when he built his hotel near the hockey arena and eventually the football stadium. I would put a window of less than 3 years from the completion of the downtown stadium to the start of a luxury hotel at the Seneca Buffalo Creek Casino.

actually CBP did a pretty decent job with the Buffalo Bills charters over the last few years. They had their own primary Kane and between the passports and enhanced DL's we got them through pretty quickly. Trains wouldn't be much different though I'm not sure how that schedule would work. There is only one cross border train each day, inbound from Canada arrives around 11:00am in Niagara Falls and the Toronto run usually gets to NFNY outbound after 4:30. Times to Buffalo would be later and earlier of course.

Perhaps a special charter "train" could be utilized for the Canada runs. Not sure how that would work with Canadian equipment, but Canada is better equipped for train travel than the US. Maybe a GO train makes that run. Pre-arrival checks could be performed which would speed the Inspectional process as well.




b.b.

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Originally Posted by BorderBob

Perhaps a special charter "train" could be utilized for the Canada runs. Not sure how that would work with Canadian equipment, but Canada is better equipped for train travel than the US. Maybe a GO train makes that run. Pre-arrival checks could be performed which would speed the Inspectional process as well.

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It's a shame that Amtrak runs the trains. You would think a run to Toronto would be more than once a day. But with the pricing that Amtrak does...it's understandable.

Round trip from Downtown Toronto to Niagara Falls CA is $40.06 US.
Round trip from Downtown Niagara Falls CA to Downtown Niagara Falls NY is $20.00 US.
Round trip from Downtown Buffalo to Downtown Niagara Falls NY is $28.00 US.
Round trip from Downtown Buffalo to Downtown Toronto is $86.00 US.

No wonder why Amtrak needs to be subsidized.... That pricing makes zero sense.

I wonder what if they could do a pilot program where you offer people people who purchase a round trip ticket from Toronto to Buffalo a $5.00 Amtrak add-on. In other words, it would cost you just $45.00 rather than $86.00 to come to Buffalo. Instead of doing a tax free zone in downtown you should do a pilot subsidy program to bring people from Toronto to Buffalo.

Near the new Peace Bridge?