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Thread: Marine Drive Apartments in trouble on the waterfront

  1. #46
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    You want to source that outside of an architect from Chicago? I would love to see the database that shows this information.
    Found some information - https://www.ci.buffalo.ny.us/files/1...ssmentRoll.pdf

    But unable to connect the $600K a year.


    I was able to find that 205 MARINE DR APT 7A BUFFALO NY 14202 is listed on the tax rolls to a HARRIET GRAMLICH.

    How is a unit in Marine Drive on its own?

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles View Post
    What facts do you base that statement on?
    I've heard that it's always been on the tax rolls and pays the city $600,000 per year in taxes.
    On both the city and county tax roll assessment list...there are only 3 properties on Marine Dr....all owned by C of BUFFALO.
    http://www.ci.buffalo.ny.us/applicat...n/default.aspx

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe d. View Post
    The buildings should be sold to private sector...and be put back on the city tax rolls. The present property taxpayers are losing out, and subsidize city services...for which these buildings get for free. These buildings should be forced to pay their fair share.
    How much in tax revenue do the city and county actually get from all the private sector on the waterfront? In fact, from all of the new development (within the last 5 years) in downtown? My guess is that it's not much more than what they got before any of this development took place because they give these developers so many tax breaks and subsidies. None of these deals happen without developers getting some kind of "tax credits" ... you pay $1000 in taxes and you get $1000 in tax credits, it zeroes out.
    Your right to buy a military weapon without hindrance, delay or training cannot trump Daniel Barden’s right to see his eighth birthday. -- Jim Himes

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda_D View Post
    How much in tax revenue do the city and county actually get from all the private sector on the waterfront? In fact, from all of the new development (within the last 5 years) in downtown? My guess is that it's not much more than what they got before any of this development took place because they give these developers so many tax breaks and subsidies. None of these deals happen without developers getting some kind of "tax credits" ... you pay $1000 in taxes and you get $1000 in tax credits, it zeroes out.
    Yes...tax subsidies were a incentive to jump start the development of the waterfront...but that is now past...well on its way to become a first class
    area. These Marine Dr. apt buildings will generate revenue for the developer and be taxed at fair value...bringing thousand$ of dollars into the city coffers. I doubt any incentives would be needed to repair /renovate these buildings/apartments to receive fair market rent. At the very least..proposals should be put out for bid to see what the options are for the taxpayers as opposed to being a monetary liability on the Buffalo property taxpayers!

  5. #50
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda_D View Post
    How much in tax revenue do the city and county actually get from all the private sector on the waterfront? In fact, from all of the new development (within the last 5 years) in downtown? My guess is that it's not much more than what they got before any of this development took place because they give these developers so many tax breaks and subsidies. None of these deals happen without developers getting some kind of "tax credits" ... you pay $1000 in taxes and you get $1000 in tax credits, it zeroes out.

    Heh. All of the tax breaks that developers get have a term to them. Of course you look at development in a 5 year window.....

    How about running the numbers on what this looks like after 15 years. 20....

    Sh*t takes time. Sadly for your generation, you didn't do much. The new waterfront is for the next generation. The rewards from all of this work is going to pay off for the kids who are in middle school right now. When they get to their 20s, they are going to be left with a much different region than what was left for my generation. Instead of having half of your HS class relocate to other states in the US, the goal is to have a much larger % of those kids stay.

  6. #51
    Member Linda_D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe d. View Post
    Yes...tax subsidies were a incentive to jump start the development of the waterfront...but that is now past...well on its way to become a first class
    area. These Marine Dr. apt buildings will generate revenue for the developer and be taxed at fair value...bringing thousand$ of dollars into the city coffers. I doubt any incentives would be needed to repair /renovate these buildings/apartments to receive fair market rent. At the very least..proposals should be put out for bid to see what the options are for the taxpayers as opposed to being a monetary liability on the Buffalo property taxpayers!
    ^^^

    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    Heh. All of the tax breaks that developers get have a term to them. Of course you look at development in a 5 year window.....

    How about running the numbers on what this looks like after 15 years. 20....

    Sh*t takes time. Sadly for your generation, you didn't do much. The new waterfront is for the next generation. The rewards from all of this work is going to pay off for the kids who are in middle school right now. When they get to their 20s, they are going to be left with a much different region than what was left for my generation. Instead of having half of your HS class relocate to other states in the US, the goal is to have a much larger % of those kids stay.
    Do you two believe in the Tooth Fairy, too? The housing in the Erie Basin Marina area, most of which was built in the 1980s and 1990s, gets taxed at a fraction of its market value, and thousands less than properties with the same market value elsewhere in the city. The Buffalo pols put it into an "Empire Zone" because it's supposed to "create jobs". The entire waterfront area is part of the Empire Zone area.
    Your right to buy a military weapon without hindrance, delay or training cannot trump Daniel Barden’s right to see his eighth birthday. -- Jim Himes

  7. #52
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda_D View Post
    The housing in the Erie Basin Marina area, most of which was built in the 1980s and 1990s, gets taxed at a fraction of its market value, and thousands less than properties with the same market value elsewhere in the city. The Buffalo pols put it into an "Empire Zone" because it's supposed to "create jobs". The entire waterfront area is part of the Empire Zone area.
    Wrong. As usual.


    Two high value properties. The first is located near the Elmwood Village. The second is in the Erie Basin Marina and one of the units you mentioned being built in the 1980s.

    201 Anderson Place - Buffalo, NY 14222 (Currently Listed for $400K)
    Total Sq. Feet - 3,076

    2014 $1,079
    2013 $1,090
    2012 $1,097
    2011 $1,073
    2010 $1,073
    2009 $918
    2008 $918
    2007 $909
    2006 $811
    2005 $5,832
    2004 $5,832

    That's a total of $19,714 in taxes over the last 11 years or $6.40 per square foot.

    164 Rivermist Dr - Buffalo, NY 14202 (Currently Listed for $999k) Built in 1988.
    Total Sq Feet - 2,613

    2014 $2,023
    2013 $2,043
    2012 $2,058
    2011 $2,012
    2010 $8,785
    2009 $1,967
    2008 $1,948
    2007 $1,948
    2006 $1,914
    2005 $16,140
    2004 $16,140

    That's a total of $56,978 in taxes over the last 11 years or $21.80 per square foot.


    That is almost triple over the same time. You know what triple means...as in almost 3x more? The Erie Basin townhomes are smaller, denser and pay a sh*tload more in taxes. When these were built downtown was still a dumpster fire. They moved in next to housing projects and the marina was not much of anything.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda_D View Post
    How much in tax revenue do the city and county actually get from all the private sector on the waterfront? In fact, from all of the new development (within the last 5 years) in downtown? My guess is that it's not much more than what they got before any of this development took place because they give these developers so many tax breaks and subsidies. None of these deals happen without developers getting some kind of "tax credits" ... you pay $1000 in taxes and you get $1000 in tax credits, it zeroes out.

    Two wrongs do not make a right. Just because one group doesn't pay their full share doesn't mean others shouldn't pay their full share either.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    Two wrongs do not make a right. Just because one group doesn't pay their full share doesn't mean others shouldn't pay their full share either.
    It's very rare for anyone to pay their full share. The reality is, if you're going to have people paying less (for various reasons) you need to have people paying more. It's the only way you can balance the books so to speak.

    Take for example 115 Nottingham Terrace. It's a 3 bedroom/3.5 bath home with 5,615 sqft. Over the last 11 years it's been taxed $138,628 in property taxes. The median price for a home in Buffalo is $93,000. There is no way in hell that the owners of 115 Nottingham Terrace is paying just it's full share. It's paying it and then some.

    Where Buffalo got into trouble is how it viewed wealth for so many years. The blue collar mindset ran most of the money out of town and it's not like NYC where the city itself can overcome this. So people moved out of the city, either to the suburbs or to other places in the US. Many of these grand homes had their owners replaced with non-profits. This hurt the tax base.

    The waterfront of Buffalo is one of the few areas in the city where you can 'override' the city itself by location....similar to how NYC does it. For a city that needs so much money to help others, having just 14 homes listed over $1,000,000 is a clear sign of the problem. Detroit has 4, Cleveland has 60, Indianapolis has 89, Minneapolis has 259 and Charlotte has 275. Putting it in a local perspective...Amherst/Clarence has 11 listings over $1M. There is a direct and undeniable correlation between the health of a city and the number of high value properties it has. High value properties carry a massive amount of the tax burden.

    But you also always will have fools. Fools who think that someone getting something that they will never qualify for is somehow wrong. Fools that think everything belongs to the 'people' but are too stupid to see that without the high end of taxpayers the public things like the waterfront look like sewers.

    So it's not two wrongs. It's envy.

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