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Thread: Roofing policy data in, now what

  1. #31
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    Are you kidding? Permits by towns is nothing more than a cash grab!

    Outside of rough framing, before the wallboard is put up, is the only time inspections mean anything. Reroofs, new hot water tank, ect, all a cash grab. First off, an inspector cant judge a job unless he physically gets on a roof.

    Tell me, How many building expectors you seen driving around town with a 32' extension ladder strapped to the top of their SUV?

    In amherst, NONE! NEVER EVER EVER!

    Its all BS, a simple cash grab by the towns.

    To do a proper roof inspection, requires you to walk the roof, peal up shingles, check around roof vents, skylights ect.

    NEVER HAPPENS!

    Building Inspectors can inspect everything as long as both feet never leave the ground.

    its a cash grab, pure and simple.

    Plus, as an added bonus to the Town, say you put in a new hot water tank, a very simple job, for a 15 year old with internet access, once you 'invite' said inspector into your home, they can FINE you, and MAKE YOU PAY for anything that doesnt pass 'code' its total bullchit.

    On the flip side a 'license' ensures the contractor has proper insurance... heres the rub for you folks...

    52 cents, fifty two cents, thats $0.52 per dollar, for a properly insured roofer, goes STRAIGHT to insurance. (as of 2008, Probably more today) the $0.48 left over? Materials, labor, overhead, and profit comes out of that.

    So the next time you btch about it costing of $10,000 to replace your roof which took a day to do, look in the mirror, your the reason it costs so much
    Last edited by FMD; August 2nd, 2014 at 07:21 PM.
    Willful ignorance is the downfall of every major empire in history.

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  2. #32
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    While on this subject,

    Another IMPORTANT part which RARELY gets addressed...

    Work Mans Compensation Insurance. You want your roofer insured with Workmans comp so if his helper falls off the roof, you dont lose your house!

    Lets say Mr Helper, make $14.00/hr x 2,000 hrs a year (assuming the roofer has 2,000 hours worth of work per year - which is unheard of)

    The Contractor, is paying $8,000 in work mans comp insurance ALONE on that single employee. Which doesnt include Fica, SS, Disability, ect... $8,000.00 per employee. He gets a 'volume discount at the 3rd employee.

    So say he has 3 employees, hes paying $20,000 out of pocket for work mans comp alone, after that he has all the payroll taxes, advertising, liability, auto insurance, ect...

    Oh and Workmans comp? NY is the only state in the country to base it on $25K a year payroll, regardless of hours worked, or wages earned, for Landscaping, maintnence, and construction.

    Thank your unions
    Willful ignorance is the downfall of every major empire in history.

    "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Mao, 1938

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by gorja View Post
    From Lee's first post of this thread-
    Lancaster – Inspections (ice/water/layers)
    But our Inspector doesn't visit/inspect physically - so that's just another part of his job that isn't being done ! Correct ?

    Now lets say after 5 years or so after buying a new house - you need a new roof ! This standard is to go over the first roof - rarely - if every does the first roof get removed - its just too costly. So no one will ever know if all the guidelines or codes were followed. I have seen brand new houses being roofed without the tar/felt paper accept maybe the first three feet in from the edges. They actually nailed the shingles to the under layment (plywood or composite sheeting) -

    Like was stated in the past - I do not for one second believe each and every new build is thoroughly inspected. Its beyond belief this would be done !

    But in the past - when they wanted a sewer line buried in the shoreline of Ellicott Creek - they had a Inspector there sitting in his truck. This allowed them to complete the job in record time so as to raise as little attention as possible.

    As with most everything else concerning developers special treatment - individual tax payers are held to the letter of the law - not so for insiders/party supporters.

    So once again - words/codes/laws are all fine and good when used to restrict home owners - yet ignored or slanted for insiders - so what good is it ?
    #Dems play musical chairs + patronage and nepotism = entitlement !

  4. #34
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    Lets take a new build down, to whats involved....

    Once all the Town board/planning board people are paid off...

    we dig a hole, lay concrete... Inspector bob comes by... yep looks good to me! How does he know the basement floor/walls are the right thickness?

    Next up, rough framing, sure looks straight to the point right? but unless bob gets on a ladder, with a plumb bob, or a square, just looking at it doesnt tell you squat!

    Electrical is pretty straight forward. Same with plumbing...

    then the drywall goes up, along with the exterior house wrap, and siding. and the roof goes on. 5 guys on a new roof can lay an entire room of a 6,000 sq ft house in one day.

    Insulation, ect... how many of these new builds have HARD TO GET TO crawl spaces? All of them. you think Bob wiggles his way into each crawl space? LOL

    your foundation is supposed to be inspected before back filled, but you have 60 houses going up... think bob checks each one?

    Fact of the matter is, Bob, and Bob Jr, over at the building Dept cant possibly keep up with demand, so, they rubber stamp most, and slam a small percentage to the wall, to set an example. But, bob and bob jr drink free Tim Hortons coffee. No one knows how or why, no one asks.

    Unless you personally have been on more than one new build, you will never understand the complexities, nor the corner cutting.

    I my self, would NEVER buy a house built with in the past 40 years. And this is a huge part of 'why'
    Willful ignorance is the downfall of every major empire in history.

    "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Mao, 1938

  5. #35
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    Oh and one more thing...

    Nail pops, Corners which are blowing apart, and BROKEN drywall, is a FRAMING issue! NOT a drywall issue.

    And, to further hammer that home (no pun intended) to physically BREAK drywall, as in a crack appears away from a seam (a seam is the long side of drywall which is 8'-16' long) or butt joint(is the end of a sheet of drywall, 4' long), means that there is a major STRUCTURAL issue. Something moved, and moved a lot. Drywall has ALOT of give, and Seams and butt joints, are pretty flexible, up to about 3/8th of an inch in any direction. if the tape is pealing off, or a physical, not hair line, but an actual crack shows, you have structural problems.

    But your house was inspected right? Drywall, unlike old school plaster has alot of give before it breaks. I would say 50% of the homes, built in Lancaster in the past 20 years, have seams failing, and broken drywall.

    But lets worry about Jim, and his 2 car garage.
    Willful ignorance is the downfall of every major empire in history.

    "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Mao, 1938

  6. #36
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    I think your being a bit hard on our boys - making out that free coffee is more important than doing their tax funded job.

    Some guys have families you know - their just doing the best they can to support them !

    Maybe even take on a "second Job" commonly known inside as a "Second front" ! Maybe even they get real ambitious and have a business on the side - contracting, building repairs, painting, cement work - landscaping and even sporting goods store for second hand equipment resale's.

    You cant always assume just because a person is tax payer funded or appointed to a position as patronage he's lazy !

    Maybe their just busy some way else !
    #Dems play musical chairs + patronage and nepotism = entitlement !

  7. #37
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    [QUOTE=4248;1410172]

    No offense meant - but you support this - explain where the fine or fee would help taxpayers.
    Yes, I do support the re-roofing permit process. Lancaster currently has no fine system in place at present to penalize the approximately 33% of homeowners who decide they can blow off the ordinance. In prior posts I have stated reasons why I believe there should be a mechanism in place to ensure state building codes are being met and/or enforced.

    I also stated that if there is another mechanism in place besides the permitting process to ensure ice shield is being used (and properly installed), no more than two layers of roofing is present and the work was accomplished without water entering the home, I asked for someone to tell me what mechanism was in place to regulate the state building code ordinance.

    I have heard a lot of claptrap from you and others on everything but an answer to that question.

    Just because a guy has a permit or insurance it doesn't qualify them as a "Authorized Installer" - it does not guarantee a better or even correct job !
    According to what was said at town board meetings, a roofer who has had complaints lodged against him for poor workmanship will not singled out and not allowed to work in Lancaster. And like you I have heard stories where people did complain, the Building Department threatened such recourse and the roofer made the appropriate corrections.

    Roofers have also made promises to get a permit, charged the client for the permit and never got one.

    With no inspection who will judge the work - how ?
    You don’t need a ladder to inspect a roof to see if ice shield is being installed, or to see whether a tear down is in process. The workmanship will be judged by the client after the first few rains. You are making a judgment that no inspection is being made, and you know this how?

    In the past, Judges in Lancaster have a clear history of favoring the contractor - prove other wise !
    Another reason for requiring roofers or homeowners to fill out a permit application stating in detail what materials are to be used, how many layers of roof there are, and whatever else is pertinent to the project.

    In one case(on file in Lancaster court) - the judge made a home owner pay a contractor because he did a estimate for a job. The contractor Never started the job - another contractor was hired - did the work and was paid more than the complaining contractor had estimated.
    You are not providing any information as to whether the contractor estimate was free, how long ago this happened, who the judge was, and why the homeowner complaining did not take the matter to a civil court.

    As a matter of fact - the first contractor never even came back or called the owner after he gave the estimate - he sent the home owner a notice of claim after the second guy finished the job.
    The first contractor only gave an estimate and you are saying the second one finished the job. How can that be when the first contractor never started the job?

    This was all explained to the judge - he ruled the home owner should pay the first contractor the full estimate price. Even though the contractor never went back - no start date was even discussed - the contractor was told another estimate was being sought - and in fact the complaining contractor never incurred any costs.
    While this has nothing to do with the issue at hand, I find it both interesting and amusing as there must have been some agreement (verbal or in writing) that precipitated legal action by the first contractor. This story just doesn't pass the smell test.

    When you have a Town where the entire Politically Controlled system is "Developer Supported" why would tax payers believe they will be protected or even judged on a level playing field.
    Sorry, but no judge, regardless of party affiliation would act in such manner unless there was just cause. If he did, the complaining homeowner would have just cause to take the matter to a civil court and sue the town for acting arbitrary and capricious.

    Other

    I am equally amused by other posters:

    • Thinking a $50-$75 average fee for a re-roofing permit required but once every 20-25 years is outrageous when so many in today’s world paid that for the recent NCAA basketball tournament
    • Thinking that for the fee they are entitled to a full roof inspection and guarantee
    • Where some are even talking about new roofs; which this is not about
    • Making a claim that a re-roof is needed after 5 years
    • That their rights are being trampled upon when our constitution is being ripped to shreds and we have no say in where our money is being spent
    • Who claim the fee is nothing more than a cash grab when in fact it will add no more than $30,000 to $40,000 to the town revenue stream if everyone gets a permit. If the town adds a fine to those who still refuse to get a permit, ah, that’s different; especially if the fine is of significance, which it should be. The Schwartz Road town employee who was having her roof done on a Sunday without a permit, was paid a visit by a building inspector, was told to stop work and just button up the roof from rain and to get a permit before continuing the work, told the contractor to finish the job and to get the permit the next day. The Building Department could do nothing about the transgression because the work was done and there was no penalty mechanism in place.

    Until such time there is a public hearing on the matter (as promised by Supervisor Fudoli) and the town makes a determination on whether to continue the permit process, set a penalty for those not obtaining permits, and what the inspection process will entail, enough opinions and comments have been made by posters to ascertain everyone’s position on the matter.

  8. #38
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    If you google "re-roof inspection", you'll find in other areas of the country, a ladder must be provided for the inspector to inspect the roof.

    Georgia L Schlager

  9. #39
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    My point is this:

    If the job is not inspected game over.

    No fine will fix that - no fee will fix that.

    Unless a installer is a "certified installer" by the company that manufactures the shingles and its proven he followed their instructions to the letter of their recommended procedures - no job is guaranteed by the manufacture.

    Insurance does not cover the work - it covers injuries that workers may suffer.

    The building inspector does not inspect and sign off on every new roof - the only way that can be proven is for them to provide documents signed and dated by the contractor who applied each roof - that would include a on site visit by the inspector - the signed and dated verification including the installers signature - on site - never happen! The building inspector admitted not enforcing the state code for at least 4 years.

    Trying to discredit my opinions and statements mean nothing - "You are making a judgment that no inspection is being made, and you know this how?" - first - anyone who drives by any new subdivision under construction and looks at the roofs going on can see how there done. Anyone who has done that will see no Town Vehicle or Inspector on site. Anyone who knows the roofing procedure can see how its being done.


    __________________________________________________ _

    The situation I raised was accurate and factual. No home owner should have to be dragged into court because he allowed a person to give him a "free" estimate.
    As stated - the second contractor was hired to do the job and he did it. The word "finish" was not use - I stated the first contractor never showed up after giving the "free" estimate.
    As I stated it happened in the past - prior to the new current Town Judge.

    Whether it meets your sense of smell or not is irrelevant to the facts/event as stated.
    #Dems play musical chairs + patronage and nepotism = entitlement !

  10. #40
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    [QUOTE=Lee Chowaniec;1410323]
    Quote Originally Posted by 4248 View Post



    You don’t need a ladder to inspect a roof to see if ice shield is being installed, or to see whether a tear down is in process. The workmanship will be judged by the client after the first few rains. First few? how many is a few? 5? 10? 100? 1000?You are making a judgment that no inspection is being made, and you know this how? I would LOVE to know how a person, standing 20+ feet from the roof, on the ground, can tell if I+W shield has been properly installed in the correct areas.

    Another reason for requiring roofers or homeowners to fill out a permit application stating in detail what materials are to be used, how many layers of roof there are, and whatever else is pertinent to the project. this is the business of the town why?

    While this has nothing to do with the issue at hand, I find it both interesting and amusing as there must have been some agreement (verbal or in writing) that precipitated legal action by the first contractor. This story just doesn't pass the smell test. verbal agreements are not binding. If there was a written legal contract then yes the contractor has a leg to stand on. However I cant imagine any decent contractor doing this to a client.



    Other

    I am equally amused by other posters:

    • Thinking a $50-$75 average fee for a re-roofing permit required but once every 20-25 years is outrageous when so many in today’s world paid that for the recent NCAA basketball tournamentSo on top of the cost of the project, which the town really has zero responsibility for, the HomeOwner/Contractor should be forced to fork over even more money on top of everything else they have to pay for? If the Town was actually inspecting the roofs, and possibly providing some sort of arbitration, thats one thing. But their not. However this does further add to the notion that YOU really down own your home. It should be also noted that while the inspector is onsite, he can cite you for other things NOT pertaining to the roof, because after all, YOU 'invited' him onto 'your' property.
    • Thinking that for the fee they are entitled to a full roof inspection and guarantee Wait, I thought that why you get a permit?
    • Where some are even talking about new roofs; which this is not aboutCause all new roofs are installed correctly, so no inspection needed.
    • Making a claim that a re-roof is needed after 5 years
    • That their rights are being trampled upon when our constitution is being ripped to shreds and we have no say in where our money is being spentThis is true.
    • Who claim the fee is nothing more than a cash grab when in fact it will add no more than $30,000 to $40,000 to the town revenue stream if everyone gets a permit.Add in all the other fees the town charges. Next thing you know, youll have to pay a yearly $5 fee for BBQ'ing in your backyard. but hey its ONLY $5 right? If the town adds a fine to those who still refuse to get a permit, ah, that’s different; especially if the fine is of significance, which it should be. I thought when you bought your home it was YOURS and you could do what you wanted to it? When you allow a govt entity to dictate what you can, and can not do to your home with out THEIR permission, the homeownership value becomes null and void. Why should the govt have any say? its not their house, its yours! The Schwartz Road town employee who was having her roof done on a Sunday without a permit, was paid a visit by a building inspector, was told to stop workBecause the Town owns the home, not you. you just pay for it, but really its the town's house. and just button up the roof from rain and to get a permit before continuing the work,Button up an open roof? LOL I wonder how many thousands of dollars damage via water infiltration was done because the town stuck its nose where it didnt belong? told the contractor to finish the job and to get the permit the next day. The Building Department could do nothing about the transgression because the work was done and there was no penalty mechanism in place.So moral of the story, the town told them to stop, but since no 'penalty' is in place, in my opinion, why stop? They going to arrest you?

    Until such time there is a public hearing on the matter (as promised by Supervisor Fudoli) and the town makes a determination on whether to continue the permit process, set a penalty for those not obtaining permits, and what the inspection process will entail, enough opinions and comments have been made by posters to ascertain everyone’s position on the matter.
    Its nothing more than another way of the Govt using its size and power to remove liberties from people.

    Furthmore, this is a roof. Not a structural change, just a simple reroof. What liability is the town trying to save the homeowner from having? If you install a roof incorrectly, it leaks. thats an issue for the Homeowner + Roofer, and possibly the courts to handle, where does the town come in exactly? Except to say 'you owe us our 'share' '
    Willful ignorance is the downfall of every major empire in history.

    "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Mao, 1938

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