E85- some concerns

[speaker]

I too want to see jobs and development in this area. The question is, at what expense? Comparing the 2 ethanol plants, I would be more inclined to support the one for Buffalo due to the lack of subsidies supporting the building of the plant. Given the economics of ethanol in general, I can't say that I completely approve of the project. There are still hidden subsidies, like the massive subsidy on corn and government interference with the true cost of ethanol. Also, it is much less energy efficient than gasoline, raising the cost of use even more. Either remove all subsidies from ethanol and gasoline or tax them both equally, including highway taxes, etc., and let private industry figure out which is more economical. I think you would find that the answer in both cases is gasoline.

Listen, I would just like an answer. Wouldn't the subsidies paid to farmers for raising corn be reduced if not done away with totally, or would the price of corn go up if this happened? If the subsidies were removed, the farmer would have to show a reasonable profit first. Right?

[DelawareDistrict]

Listen, I would just like an answer. Wouldn't the subsidies paid to farmers for raising corn be reduced if not done away with totally, or would the price of corn go up if this happened? If the subsidies were removed, the farmer would have to show a reasonable profit first. Right?

It is a bit complicated. The corn subsidy pays farmers for the difference between the market price of corn and the actual cost to produce it (with a bit thrown in for profit). It actually takes away the incentive for farmers to match the supply with the demand. They are rewarded for over-production (which lowers the market price) by increased subsidies to make up the difference in operating costs. Our direct cost, as consumers, when purchasing goods made with corn and corn by-products is lower, however the indirect cost of subsidies (through taxation) is very high. It prohibits the market from establishing a true value for the product. It also allows the farmers being subsidized to spend quite a bit of money lobbying Congress to keep the subsidy going. The best thing would be to eliminate the subsidy altogether, that would result in a net savings to consumers and taxpayers.

[mikewrona]

Is that how you train people to lead "productive" lives? Avoid answering direct questions at all costs!!

You never asked a question. You made a claim based on a press release and a Buffalo News article. And then you want me to prove the information wrong. I don't have to. You prove that information is correct. It's your complaint.

All you do is change the argument around until you find a point that you feel you can win. This is the way you argument has gone: You are against the Medina Ethanol Plant because there is a corn subsidy. Then you you added to your argument that the construction is contingent on $25million construction subsidy, even though construction has been underway for a month and a half and there has been no subsidy payment. Then you just responded today to another post saying you looked more favorably upon the Buffalo ethanol plant because there is no construction subsidy. All of a sudden the original premis of your argument, the corn subsidy, is not a problem.

Seems to me you should be outright against the Buffalo ethanol plant because it is receiving a corn subsidy as is your personal belief.

[DelawareDistrict]

The construction that is underway is preliminary site work. The overall plan has not been officially approved yet. I never said the corn subsidy is not a problem . . .show me that quote. Of course you won't, you will just continue to twist and turn with your baseless assertions.

[colossus27]

I don't think anyone is surprised. You guys practice selective complaining.
When something doesn't fit you libertarian agenda you complain about it.
When something suits your personal needs you have aboslutely no problem ignoring the same complaint.

I'm not calling you a hypocrit, but, if the shoe fits...

You're right- nobody's surprised at your reply, mike. Nobody.

Pot, meet kettle.

You haven't addressed my question about how subsidizing 300 empty calories a day benefits American society and our messed-up healthcare system. Should I now assume you don't care about the state of health care in America?

How very libertarian of you.

All told, analyst James Bovard estimates that every dollar in profits earned by ADM costs taxpayers $30.

When something suits your personal needs you have aboslutely no problem ignoring the same complaint.

But I'm the hypocrite, right?

[mikewrona]

You're right- nobody's surprised at your reply, mike. Nobody.

Pot, meet kettle.

You haven't addressed my question about how subsidizing 300 empty calories a day benefits American society and our messed-up healthcare system. Should I now assume you don't care about the state of health care in America?

How very libertarian of you.

But I'm the hypocrite, right?

I started this thread as information about an ethanol plant in Medina and E85 fuel. You now want to make the discussion into the nutritional benefit of corn and the healthcare system. What are you on crack?

[mikewrona]

The construction that is underway is preliminary site work. The overall plan has not been officially approved yet. I never said the corn subsidy is not a problem . . .show me that quote. Of course you won't, you will just continue to twist and turn with your baseless assertions.

You have to do site work before construction begins. Find a contractor and ask if that's true.

[mikewrona]

The construction that is underway is preliminary site work. The overall plan has not been officially approved yet. I never said the corn subsidy is not a problem . . .show me that quote. Of course you won't, you will just continue to twist and turn with your baseless assertions.

You don't even have a concept of sarcasm.

[colossus27]

I started this thread as information about an ethanol plant in Medina and E85 fuel. You now want to make the discussion into the nutritional benefit of corn and the healthcare system. What are you on crack?

I started this thread with a copy of the July president's message for the Engineering Society of Buffalo, which exclusively dealt with some concerns about E85.

You can download the newsletter here.

http://www.tesb.org/July%20Volume%2078%20No%2011.pdf

The plant in Medina is an ancillary point, tied to the fact that it'll be used to generate ethanol.

Note both the name of this thread and the name of the organization.

[mikewrona]

I started this thread with a copy of the July president's message for the Engineering Society of Buffalo, which exclusively dealt with some concerns about E85.

You can download the newsletter here.

http://www.tesb.org/July%20Volume%2078%20No%2011.pdf

The plant in Medina is an ancillary point, tied to the fact that it'll be used to generate ethanol.

Note both the name of this thread and the name of the organization.

Hadn't paid attention to the thread name. I started a Medina Ethanol thread.
I respond when I get the email notice. As a result I assumed it was in reference to my Medina thread.

So I'm out of here.

[FMD]

im lazy, i dont feel like reading all of this except to say this:

A good friend of mine has a 2003 Ford Ranger Edge that has been slightly modified, with performance parts, and He converted it over to run E85 when they had that test run last summer.... He says he experienced BETTER fuel economy, and MORE power over gasoline.... Just a thought.

[colossus27]

He's wrong. Thermodynamics does not afford exceptions.

[Timmy]

Actually they would make more money starting with Biodiesel than ethanol

there has been a huge jump in corn prices from the growth in ethanol but soybean prices have dropped and the expected demand for biodiesel is even more than ethanol

in any case, I dont care...just build the darn plants....and put those empty silos back to good use!

[speaker]

There's a great article by Gerry Rising in today's paper. REally--I'm having serious doubts.

[DelawareDistrict]

There's a great article by Gerry Rising in today's paper. REally--I'm having serious doubts.

I've been saying and linking to the same stuff for over a year. People are so blinded by government solutions proposed by politicians posturing to get reelected, that they believe what they hear.