Is it Feasible on ANY Level to Continue going to The Ralph?

[pointblank]

by Pat Freeman

The recent storm that fell on Western New York once again highlighted the futility of our current stadium in Orchard Park, and why I have contended that not another dime of taxpayer funds should have gone into its renovation. This cosmetic waste of money which was forced down the pocket books of Western New Yorkers was unable to be ready not only for a home game, but it was a multi-use dome stadium in downtown Detroit they were forced to relocate in order to play their divisional rival New York Jets. Below is a look at the Detroit Lions advertisement for renting space at Ford Field in Downtown Detroit. Read More...









www.thebuffalobullet.com

[NY The Vampire State]

Rome is burning!

If Western New York is truly going to experience an economic rebirth of this region that is inclusive of every one of its citizens, then this negative mind-set on new ideas must change immediately.

I haven't seen anyone who is opposed to to a new stadium, just those cognitive of who's going to pay for it. In fact, the "new idea" that you mention would be to let the Bills, The NFL and Terry Pegula stand on their own feet. Having the taxpayers foot the bill for stadiums is more of the same old same old contributing to our outrageous tax burden in WNY. Get the footballs out of your ears. Like others around here, your lust for the NFL prevents you from making a rational thought on the subject.

[nogods]

Yup, a "Ford Field" would fit right in for Buffalo

The Lions lost 113 of the first 160 games they played in Ford Field

The stadium did not result in a development boom around it.

It was built during the tenure of a man Time Magazine designated the worst mayor in America (who ended up in a federal prison)

A decade after it was built, Detroit filed bankruptcy.

Yeah! Let history repeat itself!

[NY The Vampire State]

Yup, a "Ford Field" would fit right in for Buffalo

The Lions lost 113 of the first 160 games they played in Ford Field

The stadium did not result in a development boom around it.

It was built during the tenure of a man Time Magazine designated the worst mayor in America (who ended up in a federal prison)

A decade after it was built, Detroit filed bankruptcy.

Yeah! Let history repeat itself!

Did the moons align or what.. Never thought Id say it but this post is right on!

[grump]

Yup, a "Ford Field" would fit right in for Buffalo

The Lions lost 113 of the first 160 games they played in Ford Field

The stadium did not result in a development boom around it.

It was built during the tenure of a man Time Magazine designated the worst mayor in America (who ended up in a federal prison)

A decade after it was built, Detroit filed bankruptcy.

Yeah! Let history repeat itself!

nogods, I don't think it's a given that a team playing in a new stadium has to be cruddy although the Bills record over the last 14 years ain't encouraging. I agree about a stadium being an economic engine; examples of that are indeed few & far between. As for Detroit filing for bankruptcy, everything I've read suggests that that process was years in the making and I've never read anything suggesting Ford Field caused it. Doesn't mean it didn't contribute, just means I haven't seen anything suggesting it. And in any event Buffalo is already in the NYS version of bankruptcy with a control board appointed effectively to run the city. Control boards are the NYS solution to preventing federal bankruptcy filings by NY cities. As for the quality of our mayor...ha, ha, ho, ho...I can't go on!

[NY The Vampire State]

Its sad to think that the author of this article somehow relates available rental space to economic prosperity. How many Benderson signs do we see around here? Buffalo doesn't have a shortage of available space.

[nogods]

Its sad to think that the author of this article somehow relates available rental space to economic prosperity. How many Benderson signs do we see around here? Buffalo doesn't have a shortage of available space.

Benderson has apparently figured out how to make money by not renting its properties, because I have seen Benderson property go empty for 5 or more years. How much more in rent has to be collected to make up for 60 months of no rent?

[HipKat]

I've despised Benderson since 1987 when he bought out the repair shop I worked for (Maple Transit Auto Repair) and turned it into a strip mall. Business is business, but he put a good man out of business that had been there for years.

[Linda_D]

OP, have you ever even been out to the Outer Harbor??? Have you ever looked at a map of Buffalo that shows where people actually live? Where there are major access points to the Outer Harbor? I ask because it's obvious that you are clueless that the Outer Harbor is a brownfield geographically isolated from the rest of the city by the Buffalo River, the City Ship Canal, and the remains of massive industrial sites. You also realize that the recent lake effect snow storm was NOT only an unprecedented weather event, but that the Outer Harbor and/or downtown Buffalo could have easily been buried in just as much snow as Orchard Park if the winds had come from only a few degrees more south than west, right?

The OH has been isolated from the rest of the city throughout the city's history. In the 19th century, prior to the southward expansion of the Buffalo Harbor by building the breakwalls that protect the Outer Harbor, there was a dike built approximately where the Skyway Bridge is today that protected the grain elevators along the Ship Canal. On the water side of the dike there was a shanty town for people who were too poor to even live in the Canal Street area. It was regularly wiped out by lake storms, and its existence was largely ignored by contemporaries and in historical sources. The only reference to it that I've found is on the 1894 Buffalo City Atlas.

After the building of the breakwaters in the early 20th century, the Outer Harbor became home to various industrial enterprises, most notably the Ford Motor Company plant which was located south of the Coast Guard Station and is now located in Blasdell. A few of the buildings still remain but most have been demolished. These businesses left a legacy of soil pollution that requires remediation when the ground is disturbed to build new facilities. Remediation equals tens of millions of additional $$$ added to any project done on the OH.

The Outer Harbor is isolated from most of Buffalo's current population, which is primarily located north and east of downtown. The only way for that population to get to the Outer Harbor is over the Skyway or through Louisiana and Ohio Streets on the southeast side of downtown. Contrary to what some think, the Skyway did NOT replace any bridge over the Buffalo River directly connecting downtown Buffalo to the Outer Harbor. The closest vehicle access to the OH from downtown was always via Michigan Avenue where lift bridges crossed the Buffalo River (Michigan Avenue Bridge) and the City Ship Canal (South Michigan Avenue Bridge). The South Michigan Avenue Bridge was NOT removed until 1964, nearly a decade after the Skyway was built. It was NOT replaced because by the 1960s, there was NO longer enough industry located out on the OH to justify doing so.

The Outer Harbor is also isolated from most Buffalonians living in South Buffalo by the industrial sites, many of which are abandoned or mostly abandoned, along the City Ship Canal and the Buffalo River. Take a ride down Louisiana Street to Ohio Street to Fuhrmann Blvd, and then east on Tifft Street and enjoy the view factories, grain elevators, industrial wastelands, and railroad tracks that block access to the Outer Harbor. That's the ONLY way into or out the Outer Harbor except via the Skyway and Route 5

The Outer Harbor is NOT a candidate for ANY kind of large scale economic development. It is too isolated, and the soil is too polluted. We've already have first hand knowledge of the problems caused by attempting to repurpose former industrial land (ie, Love Canal, Hickory Woods). I think at least some of the area on the OH is probably fill from other industrial projects and from dredging the harbor. It's best use for the foreseeable future is as park/recreational land where Buffalonians can get close to the water. It does NOT even have to be deeded parkland, just leave it be and let people create footpaths through the area. Jeez, it's NOT a criminal offense to leave land just sit unused. It's NOT going to spoil like dead fish left on a dock to bake in the summer sun!!!

Furthermore, Buffalo also does NOT have the resources to fund installing and maintaining improved/increased infrastructure and services to an area of the city that currently has NO residents and is NOT likely to have any in the near future. The City of Buffalo has too many populated neighborhoods that need improved infrastructure and services that it should waste resources chasing some economic development fantasy, and the idea of a stadium/convention center as some kind of economic engine is a total fantasy straight out of the same stupid thinking that said that building a subway was an economic engine.

An NFL football stadium is used, at maximum, for maybe 10-12 games a year. The country is overbuilt with convention centers, and virtually all of them are losing money, and that's even in popular year round convention destinations. Who is going to want to come to a convention in Buffalo in January or February? Massive stadium rock concerts are few and far between these days. What other big ticket venues could a massive stadium/convention center attract that would NOT take away events currently staged at other venues like the FNC? What's the point of simply rearranging deck chairs on Titanic?

As I've said before, a better site for a city stadium would be somewhere north and/or east of downtown. There are many neighborhoods that are virtually abandoned that could be cleared out for a stadium and parking, reducing crimes like arson and dog-fighting by getting rid of the abandoned buildings that breed crime. Aid to the remaining residents of these areas to help them move to safer, more populated neighborhoods would mitigate the dislocation of the project. Put a new stadium close enough to the Kensington/Scajacquada or the I-190/Elm-Oak Arterial, and a lot of the traffic infrastructure is already there, especially if existing rail ROWs can be used for commuter train service.

Where ever a new stadium is located, however, people need to understand that it is NOT going to produce much, if any, economic spin off. NONE of these stadiums do, even when they have convention center potential. If Buffalonians want their city to prosper, they would do better making their city a better place to live and to do business. Safe neighborhoods, decent schools, and adequate services (including snowplowing) will go a lot further in attracting businesses than building a massive white elephant out on the Outer Harbor to looks pretty in convention brochures and on the city web site.

[WNYresident]

Where ever a new stadium is located, however, people need to understand that it is NOT going to produce much, if any, economic spin off. NONE of these stadiums do, even when they have convention center potential. If Buffalonians want their city to prosper, they would do better making their city a better place to live and to do business. Safe neighborhoods, decent schools, and adequate services (including snowplowing) will go a lot further in attracting businesses than building a massive white elephant out on the Outer Harbor to looks pretty in convention brochures and on the city web site.

This is one reason IDA's need to be eliminated for the most part. I can see select cases where a tax break might be warranted but those are few and far between. A lot of businesses that are given breaks to offset the obnoxious property/state taxes we pay do not generate the job creation or economic impact the IDA's say they will. They don't care because they take a cut off of each deal no matter how the deal turns out. Line their pockets at the expense of others. Go check out the salaries from the Amherst IDA. They will keep that scam going for as long as they can.

[Linda_D]

I don't think that IDAs do anything worthwhile, either. Cities, towns, and counties already have planning departments to handle zoning, development, building codes, etc. There's no reason why the work that IDAs do can't be handled by local planning departments. In fact, it would probably result in better service, and certainly would waste a lot less money, especially if the planning department was at the county level to mitigate individual municipalities competing for businesses via subsidies.

[grump]

I don't think that IDAs do anything worthwhile, either. Cities, towns, and counties already have planning departments to handle zoning, development, building codes, etc. There's no reason why the work that IDAs do can't be handled by local planning departments. In fact, it would probably result in better service, and certainly would waste a lot less money, especially if the planning department was at the county level to mitigate individual municipalities competing for businesses via subsidies.

Actually, it would almost certainly be unconstitutional for a municipality to do what IDA's do...that's why the legislature created them. As for the Amherst IDA salaries, if one looks at their cost vs return and compare to the cost vs return of ECIDA the result is laughable. This can be easily documented by reviewing the annual IDA report prepared by the state comptroller. But what do IDA's have to do with a once in a century snowstorm affecting the viability of the Ralph?

[nogods]

The OH has been isolated from the rest of the city throughout the city's history. In the 19th century, prior to the southward expansion of the Buffalo Harbor by building the breakwalls that protect the Outer Harbor, there was a dike built approximately where the Skyway Bridge is today that protected the grain elevators along the Ship Canal. On the water side of the dike there was a shanty town for people who were too poor to even live in the Canal Street area. It was regularly wiped out by lake storms, and its existence was largely ignored by contemporaries and in historical sources. The only reference to it that I've found is on the 1894 Buffalo City Atlas.

I first learned of the seiche of 1844 at an exhibit at the History museum about 15 years ago. Here is a link to a recent BN story about it: Oct. 18, 1844: 'Great flood of 1844' devastates Buffalo

[HipKat]

I first learned of the seiche of 1844 at an exhibit at the History museum about 15 years ago. Here is a link to a recent BN story about it: Oct. 18, 1844: 'Great flood of 1844' devastates Buffalo

Great story about something I had never heard of. And I love that writing style. It's almost poeic

[Linda_D]

I first learned of the seiche of 1844 at an exhibit at the History museum about 15 years ago. Here is a link to a recent BN story about it: Oct. 18, 1844: 'Great flood of 1844' devastates Buffalo

Thanks for the article, nogods. There's a reason for all those breakwalls out in the harbor. BTW, if you go out to LaSalle Park or the Small Boat Harbor on a windy day when the wind's from the west, you can watch the waves break over the outer breakwalls like they were only a couple feet high when, in fact, they just out of the water like 15 or 20 feet. Sometimes, you can hardly stand or even catch your breath when facing into the wind at the water's edge.

Lake Erie is very shallow for a body of water with ts surface area, it's long and narrow, and its orientation is southwest to northeast. That's a prescription for disastrous storms because prevailing winds in the middle latitudes are from the west, and these storms are particularly dangerous and disastrous in November and December when the winds tend to be strongest and the lake isn't frozen. The wind literally pushes water up the length of the lake and piles it up against the northeastern end (Buffalo harbor) and along the lake's southern shore from Buffalo southward almost Erie, PA. Because the lake's not very deep, that water spills over like water sloshing around in a shallow pie plate.

If the air temps are cold enough and the water temps are warm enough, the winds over the lake pick up moisture from the lake and then dump it over the land areas bordering the lake as lake effect snow (LES) ... and sometimes those are whoppers as the recent one was. Most of Erie County is very vulnerable to LES produced by Lake Erie; only the northwest corner, probably from about the Peace Bridge north and probably west of Delaware Avenue north to Niagara County and including Tonawanda and Grand Island, are relatively "safe" -- except that these areas are vulnerable to LES off Lake Ontario when the winds come from the north or northeast.

Storms with lots of rain/snow/wind are what you get when you live near large bodies of water, whether the water is an ocean or an inland sea. That's the bad reality. The good reality is that temperatures tend to be more moderate. Albany, which is approximately the same latitude as Buffalo, tends to get hotter in the summer (more 90+ days) and colder in the winter (more -0 days). Lincoln, NB, OTOH, which is significantly south of Buffalo's latitude, gets much hotter (frequent 100+ days) and much colder (frequent -10 days) than Buffalo. It could be worse, of course. At least we don't get hurricanes like they do along the East and Gulf Coasts.