So now that we know Bass Pro isn't coming to Buffalo.....

[300miles]

Does Walmart want to be at canalside? Hint the answer is not Yes. So why are people thinking SimCity is how reality works?

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

Originally Posted by 300miles

Does Walmart want to be at canalside? Hint the answer is not Yes. So why are people thinking SimCity is how reality works?

The better question is who wants to be at CanalSide? From what I can read...not many.

At some point the fat/ugly person realizes the skinny/pretty person is out of their league. They either can lose weight/do a make over or settle for what they can get.

[Linda_D]

Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS

The better question is who wants to be at CanalSide? From what I can read...not many.

At some point the fat/ugly person realizes the skinny/pretty person is out of their league. They either can lose weight/do a make over or settle for what they can get.

So, maybe the great plans for Canalside should be put on hold and the city concentrate on making its existing neighborhoods livable and improving its existing business/commercial/retail corridors?

Sometimes it's better to just let something sit rather than build something bad that will fail. Buffalo has spent the previous half century trying to "revitalize downtown" with virtually no return on the public's investment. How is the COB better today than it was in 1960 or 1970 or 1980 or 1990 or even 2000 because of the billions of $$$ spent downtown? The answer it's not. Pouring billions into downtown hasn't done squat to improve the city. I would argue that these big "silver bullet" projects like Canalside and its predecessors actually hurt the city because it wastes resources that could be used to fix neighborhoods.

Look at the places around the city that are successful, especially in terms of retail, dining, and entertainment. They were developed based on private vision and private enterprise. That doesn't mean that there's no public monies involved, but the impetus hasn't come from the public side. Was Chippewa Street a grandoise scheme emanating from City Hall? What about the Elmwood Strip or Hertel Avenue?

Developers thought there was some profit to be made, so they took some chances. Giving Rocco Termini tax credits for renovating historic buildings is a whole lot different than opening the city/county/state coffers to some out-of-state company with big promises and no-so-big results.

If the Canalside area has economic "legs", it will take off on its own. If it can't develop without massive input of public monies, it's a failure before it even gets built.

[speaker]

...and I wish the powers would be very cautious about handing over public land to any developer.
Look at the American side of the Niagara. All dumps and for the most part unreachable to WNYers.
Then look over to the Canadian side. Parks for the people. Access galore.
Once property changes hands, there's no going back.
Linda's right; Hertel Ave, the Elmwood Strip, etc., had nothing to do with city planning (or big boxes.)

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

Originally Posted by Linda_D

So, maybe the great plans for Canalside should be put on hold and the city concentrate on making its existing neighborhoods livable and improving its existing business/commercial/retail corridors?

I would agree with that. I think the city should just try and get a 'win' more often and have those wins not cost so damn much.

Originally Posted by Linda_D

Sometimes it's better to just let something sit rather than build something bad that will fail. Buffalo has spent the previous half century trying to "revitalize downtown" with virtually no return on the public's investment. How is the COB better today than it was in 1960 or 1970 or 1980 or 1990 or even 2000 because of the billions of $$$ spent downtown? The answer it's not. Pouring billions into downtown hasn't done squat to improve the city. I would argue that these big "silver bullet" projects like Canalside and its predecessors actually hurt the city because it wastes resources that could be used to fix neighborhoods.

I can see your point but to counter...

Sometimes it's better to build something that is not 'perfect' than build nothing at all.

Originally Posted by Linda_D

Look at the places around the city that are successful, especially in terms of retail, dining, and entertainment. They were developed based on private vision and private enterprise. That doesn't mean that there's no public monies involved, but the impetus hasn't come from the public side. Was Chippewa Street a grandoise scheme emanating from City Hall? What about the Elmwood Strip or Hertel Avenue?

Great point. To add, they were developed without much obstruction. Buffalo just needs to grow for a while. Get the ball rolling and then try to make it 'perfect'....

Originally Posted by Linda_D

Developers thought there was some profit to be made, so they took some chances. Giving Rocco Termini tax credits for renovating historic buildings is a whole lot different than opening the city/county/state coffers to some out-of-state company with big promises and no-so-big results.

If the Canalside area has economic "legs", it will take off on its own. If it can't develop without massive input of public monies, it's a failure before it even gets built.

Not much argument here outside of the out-of-state company part. If Buffalo is going to move forward, it MUST realize there simply is not enough money/talent/experience internally to do so.

Termini can only do so much. Buffalo must come to terms with the fact that it needs outside help to rebound.

Until Buffalo creates an environment where you can build shiny new buildings without getting dirty....you are going to see more parking lots and less Elmwood Village projects.

[Linda_D]

Originally Posted by speaker

...and I wish the powers would be very cautious about handing over public land to any developer.
Look at the American side of the Niagara. All dumps and for the most part unreachable to WNYers.
Then look over to the Canadian side. Parks for the people. Access galore.
Once property changes hands, there's no going back.
Linda's right; Hertel Ave, the Elmwood Strip, etc., had nothing to do with city planning (or big boxes.)

I totally agree. If you want people to come downtown/to the waterfront, give them access to the water. Have places to walk, to sit, to eat their lunch outside. Put in some greenery, too, and some places sheltered from the wind and with some shade. That's the kind of thing that the city should invest money in. Then allow craftspersons and food vendors to set up kiosks or booths along the streets. People would come downtown for that all summer. Later, create a market building so people could shop/dine with waterviews while inside ... Faneuil Hall or South Street Seaport come to mind. There are a lot of possibilities ...

[300miles]

Originally Posted by Linda_D

If you want people to come downtown/to the waterfront, give them access to the water. Have places to walk, to sit, to eat their lunch outside. Put in some greenery, too, and some places sheltered from the wind and with some shade. That's the kind of thing that the city should invest money in. Then allow craftspersons and food vendors to set up kiosks or booths along the streets. People would come downtown for that all summer. Later, create a market building so people could shop/dine with waterviews while inside ...

I'm not totally disagreeing with your point, but by itself it's overly simplistic. Downtown already has nice places to hangout, sit and eat, and enjoy the water. There are concerts galore and markets, and events, and street vendors. Anyone who disagrees must never go downtown. These niceties do not always evolve into actual commercial development without the right formula that encourages it. Over-planning and over-subsidizing obviously has major problems. But the opposite attitude of basically "Put in a park bench and some flowers and watch development flourish" is just as short-sighted... and history has proven it wrong. The area needs a Framework, a Plan, a Scope, and in some cases yes some Incentives to push it in the direction we want it to go.

[Achbek1]

Originally Posted by 300miles

I'm not totally disagreeing with your point, but by itself it's overly simplistic. Downtown already has nice places to hangout, sit and eat, and enjoy the water. There are concerts galore and markets, and events, and street vendors. Anyone who disagrees must never go downtown. These niceties do not always evolve into actual commercial development without the right formula that encourages it. Over-planning and over-subsidizing obviously has major problems. But the opposite attitude of basically "Put in a park bench and some flowers and watch development flourish" is just as short-sighted... and history has proven it wrong. The area needs a Framework, a Plan, a Scope, and in some cases yes some Incentives to push it in the direction we want it to go.

Miles, do you have a M.U.P. yet?

[300miles]

I'm down to the last VHS tape of my 3 week MUP program.
This lesson is completely dedicated to IKEA and Trader Joes.
I'm so excited.

[Achbek1]

Originally Posted by 300miles

I'm down to the last VHS tape of my 3 week MUP program.
This lesson is completely dedicated to IKEA and Trader Joes.
I'm so excited.

I love you