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Thread: Anti Casino Folks - Where are you now?

  1. #1
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Anti Casino Folks - Where are you now?

    So the Senecas just broke ground on an expansion to their 1 story casino downtown. That is an EXPANSION of an existing casino. All of the worries of what gambling will do to the community are still there...yet the anti casino crowd is rather quiet. HMMM

    What is NOT there is:


    • Dining
    • On-site parking for approximately 2,500 vehicles
    • Over 1,000 jobs, with total payroll of approximately $38 million
    • 90,000 square-foot casino floor with 2,000 slot machines and 45 table games
    • 22-story all-suite hotel
    • 206 suites in all, ranging in size from 550 sq.ft up to 2,000 sq.ft.
    • Full-service luxury spa and salon
    • Four restaurants
    • 3-acre public park to be located in northwest corner of site
    • Attached parking for 2,500 vehicles

    Now some will say that the construction would have halted because of the economy. I disagree. If there were no lawsuits, the casino would have broken ground sooner and would have been too far into construction to stop.

    So in typical Buffalo fashion, you try and stop something you do not like, lose because you do not have the grounds, and then deal with the negative and give up the positive.

    Funny and sad at the same time.

  2. #2
    Member HipKat's Avatar
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    I don't agree with you often, Lefty, but this time is right on.
    The lawsuits stopped the construction, not the economy.
    Let me articulate this for you:
    "I'm not locked in here with them. They're locked in here with me!!"
    HipKat's Blog

  3. #3
    Member Linda_D's Avatar
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    What are the status of the lawsuit(s)? Have one or all of them been settled/dismissed and is that why the Senecas are expanding the downtown casino?

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    Member dtwarren's Avatar
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    Both lawsuits are still pending awaiting decisions on various matters from Judge Skretny.
    “We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate.” ― Thomas Jefferson

  5. #5
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtwarren View Post
    Both lawsuits are still pending awaiting decisions on various matters from Judge Skretny.

    As I am sure you know, filling a lawsuit is rather easy. Winning one is difficult.

    The reality is the Casino is open. The Casino is expanding. From everything I have read, the Casino is NOT going to be closed. Pending litigation or not, the Casino is here to stay in Buffalo.


    Which goes back to my original point. Because of the litigation of few, who want to decide for all, the OPEN casino is essentially a shed where a $300M hotel should be.

  6. #6
    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    i disagree. The economy, or more specifically, the financial and credit meltdown of 2008/2009 is what stopped their construction. The Senecas made it very clear the lawsuit was not going to stop them, and started building while the lawsuit was ongoing (which was kind of a dumb move anyway). If they were truly worried about the affect of the lawsuit, they would not have even started building the steel frame.

  7. #7
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles View Post
    i disagree. The economy, or more specifically, the financial and credit meltdown of 2008/2009 is what stopped their construction. The Senecas made it very clear the lawsuit was not going to stop them, and started building while the lawsuit was ongoing (which was kind of a dumb move anyway). If they were truly worried about the affect of the lawsuit, they would not have even started building the steel frame.
    As I mentioned in my OP, if there were no lawsuits, the construction would have been too far along to stop.


    Something similar happened in San Diego. The San Diego Padres wanted to build Petco Park starting in 2000 and opening in 2002. However, there were several lawsuits against the ballpark.

    In the end, those lawsuits failed and the park opened 2 years behind schedule. Because of the ballpark, the East Village, which looked a lot like the area of the casino, saw a ton of development. However, only half of the development planned, actually happened. So now there are several empty lots riding out the storm. Those lots would have been paying much more in taxes had the park opened in 2002 not 2004.

    I am also reading this book "Blink" by Malcom Gladwell. Great book by the way. He went into medical malpractice suits. Through research, it was found that patients did not sue the doctor who was responsible but rather the doctor they did not like. They are able to determine doctors who have a high risk of lawsuits, not by the care they give, but by how they interact with patients. Those who are "nice" and have a bedside manor BY FAR are sued less than those doctors who are abrasive. Once again, this is regardless of the care provided or who is at fault.

    Back to the OP, people like DT file suits like I take in movies. They have the system down that filing a suit is second nature. However, when they lose, their are ZERO repercussions to the damage they do to the community they feel they represent.

    I am positive that when the current litigation fails, they will file more and more. Just a sad state of affairs if you ask me.

    I am not saying people should not have the right to sue. I am saying there should be protections against lawsuits with no merit that impact those folks like DT.

  8. #8
    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    I think the lawsuits have merit. Downtown land was given to a "sovereign" nation that isn't obligated to follow NYS law, and doesn't pay any taxes. They are being given a favorable business deal that would undercut other businesses (bars, restaurants, hotels) nearby in the city. Additionally, the income generated is only 25% of only the slot sales, which will undoubtedly be fought over between the city and the county. The only "real" benefit is the jobs of course.

    Given the gravity of what that means for the city economy I don't believe it should have been rushed into. The local govt should receive more income, instead of sending 75% of it to Albany. They also should not allowed them to have the ability to open any business they choose, in addition to the casino.

    Just to be clear, I'm not anti-casino. But I don't believe this deal is all it's cracked up to be. The REAL benefits would be adding a "destination" to the city, but only if it also encourages people to walk around, which the casino does not.... And the jobs.

  9. #9
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles View Post
    I think the lawsuits have merit. Downtown land was given to a "sovereign" nation that isn't obligated to follow NYS law, and doesn't pay any taxes. They are being given a favorable business deal that would undercut other businesses (bars, restaurants, hotels) nearby in the city. Additionally, the income generated is only 25% of only the slot sales, which will undoubtedly be fought over between the city and the county. The only "real" benefit is the jobs of course.

    Given the gravity of what that means for the city economy I don't believe it should have been rushed into. The local govt should receive more income, instead of sending 75% of it to Albany. They also should not allowed them to have the ability to open any business they choose, in addition to the casino.

    Just to be clear, I'm not anti-casino. But I don't believe this deal is all it's cracked up to be. The REAL benefits would be adding a "destination" to the city, but only if it also encourages people to walk around, which the casino does not.... And the jobs.
    See to me, reading this, it is more about Buffalo getting a BAD deal rather than the legality of the deal itself. See my comments about people wanting to sue doctors they do not like rather than the doctor at fault.

    The deal stinks IMO. The county that has the casino should get 90% of the taxes and the tax rate should be on everything like in Vegas.

    But the terms of the deal are done. IMO, you are never going to stop gambling at this site. The only thing that can be done is to act like a thorn in the side of the Senecas and prevent the good that can come from the deal.

  10. #10
    Member Linda_D's Avatar
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    Actually, the land wasn't "given" to the Senecas. They purchased it.

    I think the construction stopped because of the lawsuits, the economy, and internal politics within the Seneca Nation and their group that controls the casinos. The last I heard is that Daniel Snyder is again "in charge" after being ousted for a while. I also think that the credit crunch last summer/fall and the concerns that engendered in all sectors of the economy caused the Senecas to pull back. I suspect that they won't go forward with the hotel/parking garage/corporate offices project until the lawsuits are settled.

  11. #11
    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    The deal stinks IMO. The county that has the casino should get 90% of the taxes and the tax rate should be on everything like in Vegas.
    Exactly. And that's why our WNY snd NYS leaders are idiots... Why did they agree to such a lame deal? They get starry eyed at the idea of ANY development without reading the fine print.

    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    But the terms of the deal are done. IMO, you are never going to stop gambling at this site. The only thing that can be done is to act like a thorn in the side of the Senecas and prevent the good that can come from the deal.
    Which is where the lawsuit comes in. Since that is the only option left in making this a better deal for Buffalo.... IMO. Is it the best answer? No. But is there any other option? The only option was to let them do whatever they want, and we still could be stuck with an empty steel frame anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Linda_D View Post
    Actually, the land wasn't "given" to the Senecas. They purchased it.
    True, but the issue isn't with a regular real estate purchase, it's with the sovereignty that comes with it that is basically being "given" to them as a result of their previous lawsuit during the 90's. Someone from Germany can't buy land here and claim it's only following German law... Someone from Florida can't buy land here and claim they only follow Florida law. This is not a normal land purchase. It's not even normal for Indian reservations. Willingly giving sovereign land away in a city's downtown is probably unprecedented, at least in modern times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Linda_D View Post
    I think the construction stopped because of the lawsuits, the economy, and internal politics within the Seneca Nation and their group that controls the casinos.
    I could see that too. It may have been the perfect storm of problems.

    What's funny (not really) is that the Senecas are probably making a killing on profits from that temporary casino, and we're stuck with a tin shack instead of something nice in our city. Definitely not a desireable outcome... but is that totally the fault of the lawsuit? Or shouldn't NYS decision-makers take some serious heat for such a poorly planned deal.

  12. #12
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles View Post
    Which is where the lawsuit comes in. Since that is the only option left in making this a better deal for Buffalo.... IMO. Is it the best answer? No. But is there any other option? The only option was to let them do whatever they want, and we still could be stuck with an empty steel frame anyway.

    The lawsuit is not about getting a better deal. It is about power under the cloak of stopping a casino.

    If you want a better deal, you play hardball. For example, while they claim to be a sovereign nation, they are planning to tap into city water and sewer lines and use city streets to access their "nation" if you will.

    You first get Albany to agree to a better rev share. Once this is done, you put the terms to the Seneca nation like this:

    Either you give us a better take of the casino..something that is fair

    or

    We tax the hell out of your water and power to make up the difference.


    Either way, the taxpayers get the $ they want. You could hire a union rep to do the talking. They are experts at this.

  13. #13
    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    Are there any local leaders with balls enough to even attempt something like that?

    ( No... )

  14. #14
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles View Post
    Are there any local leaders with balls enough to even attempt something like that?

    ( No... )

    You are correct but I am pretty sure the people who are so good at filing lawsuits could figure out a way to sue over this.

  15. #15
    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    ha ha.... wouldn't that bring us full circle back to your first post?

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