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Thread: Roof replacement permits; why and consequences of not having one

  1. #1
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    Roof replacement permits; why and consequences of not having one

    Resident Don Symer addressed the town board Monday night on the number of re-roofing permits being issued annually vs. the number of roofs in existence in the town. Being told a few years ago by the Building Inspector that there were 20,000 roofs in Lancaster, estimating roof shelf-life expectancy at 20 years, Symer commented that a high percentage of roof replacements were taking place without permit issuance.

    According to Symer the number of roofing permits issued should average 40 bi-monthly and the number for this the town board meeting (same cycle) was 13 for the town and five for the village of Lancaster; less than half of the predicted 40. He suggested the town consider hiring part-time help in the spring to fall months to work off shift to discover what residents are not complying with the requirement and to also re-think the fee structure which may be exorbitant for some to pay; especially senior citizens and those on fixed or low incomes.

    Symer was reminded that the permit fee was $25 for the first $1,000 of roof replacement cost and $5 per thousand thereafter. A roof replacement costing $6,000 would require a $50 permit fee; not considered unreasonable for the services and protection provided. As to hiring more off hours inspectors, there was a difference of opinion on whether holding more homeowners in compliance would offset the added personnel costs.

    When Supervisor Dino Fudoli commented that hiding roofing projects is much more difficult than home interior work, Symer interjected, “You would think it would be difficult to hide but it is going on; as evident by the low number of building permits issued for roof replacements.”

    Fudoli asked Building Department Code Enforcement officer Scott Pease whether he caught a lot of people doing roof replacements without permits. Pease answered, “Yes.” Fudoli then asked whether the people not having permits pleaded ignorance of the permit requirement or whether they were trying to get away from paying for the permit. Pease answered, “Professionals.” Fudoli asked what he meant by professional and Pease answered, “Roofers.”

    Fudoli commented that in some towns plumbers are required to be licensed. “We don’t require that of roofers, do we?” Pease answered that the roofer has to be insured to get a town permit. Fudoli asked whether any thought had been given to a licensing requirement so that the town could revoke their licenses if they are caught multiple times without getting a permit. Pease answered that some thought has taken place in that direction.

    Fudoli declared that it behooved the board to look for a way to stop roofers from repeatedly doing roof replacements without coming in for permits. “Is there some way we can get to license roofers so that if they are caught twice not applying for a permit we can revoke their license.”

    Symer interjected that it could most likely be the employees of a professional roofing company moonlighting; undertaking a roofing project and not complying with the permit requirement. Fudoli retorted that if they were not licensed the building department could shut them down; stop the job immediately.

    When Symer voiced, “Yeah, if you can catch them,” Fudoli declared that what he is looking at is creating a system of deterrence not just hiring more help and adding cost to the department.

    Symer interjected that there is not a system in place right now to penalize a violation. “When caught, all they have to do is apply for a permit, pay the fee and that’s all there is to it. It’s a mere slap on the hand.” Fudoli agreed and said that there should be a fine involved where they pay double or more.

    Code enforcement Pease declared that often times when violators are cited the department hears from residents and roofers alike that express they thought the other party was to get the permit and now they would get the permit.

    Council member Donna Stempniak interjected that many homeowners don’t know a permit is required and the reason for it. It was then discussed that the reason for a permit is to ensure that the roofer has insurance. A permit will not be issued to a roofer that has no insurance coverage. A permit is still required and should the homeowner wish to replace the roof on their own, or with a professional that has no insurance, there is a second application form which spells out that the applicant is willing to perform the project with uninsured workers and assume responsibility for the liability of any injury that took place during the project.

    Pease was then asked whether there was a vehicle in place to fine the violators. He answered no, that their recourse was to stop the installation and advise them that it was necessary to get a permit before continuing the roofing project. Pease said it was his practice to check back in a few hours to see whether compliance was had.

    Pease was then presented an example where an individual had a roof replaced by installers that were recommended by a builder. The individual was told that the roofers were credible and had all the necessary requirements to do the job. The job was performed poorly and when the individual contacted the Building Department regarding the poor workmanship and asked for an inspection, the individual was told that a permit was not applied for. The individual got the permit and the roof installation was inspected by a Building Department inspector and found to be in violation of code and performed poorly. Fortunately, with the assistance of the town the individual was able to have the necessary corrections made.

    The permit process is there to protect the homeowner by ensuring that the roofing company/roofer has applied for a permit, has insurance and recognized in town as doing good work. If the roofing company/roofer has no insurance, a permit will be denied. The homeowner then has to apply for a permit and acknowledge they know the roofer has no insurance and will accept the liability.

    Other

    A resident spoke on the matter of not having off-shift inspectors when much of the roofing projects take place on a weekend and where the projects are completed in one day. A sign should be made available with the permit on it. If no such sign is evident, who does one call in town on a weekend to advise that the job is being performed without a permit, with the distinct possibility that the contractor/roofer has no insurance and the homeowner is at jeopardy regarding liability, and who stops the work from continuing.

    Mr. Symer did open a can of worms and it appears evident that the policy needs reform and the information passed on to the public either through the media and/or the town website.
    .

  2. #2
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Why have a permit in the first place?

    You still have to follow code or be fined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    Why have a permit in the first place?

    You still have to follow code or be fined.
    Only a FOOL would hire a contrator to replace a roof without a permit. The permit insures that the contractor is insured and Licensed. There are dar too many fly by night contractors who would skimp an do less than quality work in the name of profit, if they show up at all. With all the publicity lately of contractors doing substandard work, or taking deposits without ever performing the work, this should be a no brainer. It only protects the homeowner!!

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    Member NY The Vampire State's Avatar
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    The permit doesn't do anything but add to the greedy coffers of the municipality. You want insurance? Ask for a certificate. You want quality work? Ask for references. Its that simple. We need less government. My advise for Don Symer.... MYOB and take up a hobby, **** disturber.
    Democrats & Republicans Suck Alike.

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    I don't believe getting a roofing permit means one has a "License" - it verifies "Proof of Insurance" - As Vamp stated you can ask the contractor to show his certificate to you.

    Its a good idea to get a permit even if you choose to do the job - call your home owners insurance agent and make sure your covered. If a friend or family member falls of the roof and gets hurt - your liable. Plus if it is someone close to you - you'd wanna be sure you have coverage to help insure they get funds to help pay hospital bills.

    A few years back a friend in Wheat field was doing siding on his home - relatives came over and helped him. The owner was holding a 10 foot long piece of siding - he asked his sister to just hold the other end until he tacked it up. She climbed "2 steps" up the ladder - yes 2 steps - the ladder shifted and she fell - she extended her left arm trying to break her fall - she now has a Titanium Plate in her wrist.

    Never say never - accidents happen !
    #Dems play musical chairs + patronage and nepotism = entitlement !

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    Member granpabob's Avatar
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    I had my roof done twice and helped many friends do their roofs. most were done on the weekend with beer and pizza or a bar-b-que . Roofing is not brain surgery most contractors can do the work it just takes one friend who knows what they are doing to make sure it is done right. My circle of friends was big enough that it seemed like we did one for some one every year. we also did pools fences patios or other repairs. all you needed was some one with a whole sale account to get the lower material price. I also know many people who have family do their roofing when needed. what license would you yank when the work is being done by friends and family. this could be why so few permits are BOUGHT.
    Also you are replacing something that already had a permit when it was first built. asking for a second permit to fix an existing roof has to be double jeopardy, or greedy governments looking for more money so they can get a pay raise.
    One good thing about growing old is your secrets are safe with your friends they can't remember them either

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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    Why have a permit in the first place?

    You still have to follow code or be fined.
    If here were no permit process in place how would any inspection department know roofing work (in this case) was being done?

    How then would there be a process to conduct an inspection to ensure code was being followed?

    How would the fine process then be carried ou if no one knew a project was taking place and there was a code violation?

    Are you seriously saying that the honor system would be in place and all contractors could be trusted to follow code religiously and/or to put out a quality job?

    Don't we read or hear frequently that the public should be aware that contractors are screwing the public over on a regular basis.

  8. #8
    Member gorja's Avatar
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    According to the town's website, a permit is needed for

    Any structural changes, including roofs, accessory structures, sheds, pools, fences and decks require a building permit to be issued.
    So, if there is no structural change to a roof, is a permit needed to re-roof?

    Georgia L Schlager

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    Quote Originally Posted by gorja View Post
    According to the town's website, a permit is needed for



    So, if there is no structural change to a roof, is a permit needed to re-roof?
    Many homes here in WNY are older, and"strip jobs " are required. In Buffalo for instance, by code, only 2 roofs are allowed. Many homes have 3, 4 or 5 layers and are unbelievably heavy and are a safety issue should there ever be a fire. When stripping, its a messy dusty dangerous job. The layers must be taken off to the joists, and plywood installed as a base, then roofing installed. A home owner may get by with just adding a new layer of roofing shingles, but in many cases this is not possible. At least with a permit, there is some hope that the contractor will do the job right, as someone is checking his work, and if he should continue to do faulty work , his license could be pulled and he would be unble to perform work in the locality.

  10. #10
    Member nogods's Avatar
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    The home repair and improvement industry is ripe with fraud. Running a professional, law abiding, competent home improvement business requires a baseline expense that the fraudsters want to avoid so they can underbid projects. Many homeowners will hire anyone with a hammer who bids less for a project.

    Good signs of fraudsters are requested large down payments (anything in excess of 10% should be suspect.) No contract that spells out the time frame and specifics. No provision in the contract for placement of the down payment into a specified lien law account (at a minimum the contract should specify the bank at which the lien law account is maintained.) No mention of permits whatsoever. No mention of insurance.

    The fly by night guys are using your down payment to pay their bills while they finish jobs for which they have already received down payments that they have spent. It eventually catches up like any other ponzi scheme. It's a sure sign they are under capitalized or don't have adequate business credit to run their business.

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    Member Frank Broughton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NY The Vampire State View Post
    The permit doesn't do anything but add to the greedy coffers of the municipality. You want insurance? Ask for a certificate. You want quality work? Ask for references. Its that simple. We need less government. My advise for Don Symer.... MYOB and take up a hobby, **** disturber.
    Agreed, it is just greed plain and simple for the the town of Lancaster to require permits for a simple re-roof. I tear off I can see, even then most towns do not require a permit.

    Roof work engineering is easy stuff, labor is brutal but almost any one with a decent skill set can engineer a roof job. It is not rocket science.
    The above is opinion & commentary, I am exercising my 1st Amendment rights as a US citizen. Posts are NOT made with any malicious intent.

  12. #12
    Member Frank Broughton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe d. View Post
    Many homes here in WNY are older, and"strip jobs " are required. In Buffalo for instance, by code, only 2 roofs are allowed. Many homes have 3, 4 or 5 layers and are unbelievably heavy and are a safety issue should there ever be a fire. When stripping, its a messy dusty dangerous job. The layers must be taken off to the joists, and plywood installed as a base, then roofing installed. A home owner may get by with just adding a new layer of roofing shingles, but in many cases this is not possible. At least with a permit, there is some hope that the contractor will do the job right, as someone is checking his work, and if he should continue to do faulty work , his license could be pulled and he would be unble to perform work in the locality.

    Two not trues, you are just assuming there are many homes with 3 4 or 5 layers. I call that one out, no way on 4 or 5... it is impossible almost. Second, roofs are not striped to the joists. With the old shake shingles there were nailing strips of 3/4 lumber nailed to the joists. You strip to that, then add 1/2 osb or plywood. No one strips to the joists. That would be a nightmare as no way the old houses are 16 on center.
    The above is opinion & commentary, I am exercising my 1st Amendment rights as a US citizen. Posts are NOT made with any malicious intent.

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    Member Frank Broughton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    The fly by night guys are using your down payment to pay their bills while they finish jobs for which they have already received down payments that they have spent. It eventually catches up like any other ponzi scheme. It's a sure sign they are under capitalized or don't have adequate business credit to run their business.
    Wrong, most are using the funds to buy the material for that job. Ponzi scheme hahaha
    The above is opinion & commentary, I am exercising my 1st Amendment rights as a US citizen. Posts are NOT made with any malicious intent.

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    Member nogods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Broughton View Post
    Wrong, most are using the funds to buy the material for that job. Ponzi scheme hahaha
    Wrong - most of the fly by nights use your deposit to purchase the material for the roof they are working on now. They hope to use someone else's deposit 4 to 6 weeks from now to purchase the material for your job.

  15. #15
    Member Frank Broughton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    Wrong - most of the fly by nights use your deposit to purchase the material for the roof they are working on now. They hope to use someone else's deposit 4 to 6 weeks from now to purchase the material for your job.
    Hmmmm... have some experience?
    The above is opinion & commentary, I am exercising my 1st Amendment rights as a US citizen. Posts are NOT made with any malicious intent.

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