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Thread: High Speed Rail - Question for Mike Miller

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    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    High Speed Rail - Question for Mike Miller

    Mike,

    On BuffaloPundit, you mentioned that you spoke with Rep. Slaughter on the phone and she claimed to be 100% behind the Central Terminal being the focus of a station for any potential HS rail in New York State.

    My question is don't you see this a just a bad of move as putting the Bills in OP, building the 33 and not finding a reuse for the CT earlier?

    Consider that Louise Slaughter does not represent Buffalo. She represents Rochester and Niagara county. She has no vested interest in making Buffalo the best city.

    Now IF, and we both know this is a big IF, NYS were to get HS rail, the line would come from NYC to Albany and down the line to Buffalo. According to a story in 2001, Slaughter was in favor of HS rail in Rochester to be located at the current site of their Amtrak station. This station is .5 miles from DT Rochester.

    On the other side, the CT in Buffalo is in a HORRIBLE location. It was placed there at a time when people thought Buffalo was going to be a city of 3-5Million people. As we know...this is never going to happen. The CT in Buffalo is almost 2.5 miles from downtown and is located next to NOTHING that regional transportation would warrant.


    My question to you is two fold. Anyone else can jump in.

    1 - Do you think it is a mistake to make the CT the hub for HS rail in Buffalo. If not...why?

    2 - Do you think their is a slight chance that Rep. Slaughter wants the terminal in Buffalo to be so far from DT that Rochester, which is in her district, would look more attractive to regional business travel. A city center to city center type situation.


    Persoally for me, I think the best location for a HS terminal in Buffalo is close to the site of an old terminal. A Michigan and Elk terminal would service downtown the best AND help with the growth of DT Buffalo much more. Even if the HS terminal were located here, it could still connect to the CT and airport on it's way to Rochester.

    Maybe there would be a way to piggy-back the construction of the HS rail with a second line for the Buffalo metro? Just curious.

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    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    Wouldn't a DT location in Buffalo for High Speed Rail require additional Right of Ways and possible demolitions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles View Post
    Wouldn't a DT location in Buffalo for High Speed Rail require additional Right of Ways and possible demolitions?

    I am not sure. Looking at Google Earth, the tracks between the CT and DT have open access except for the crossing of Exchange.

    Even if there were possible demolitions or additional right of ways....you have to balance that over what would actually produce.

    Does anyone thing HS rail going to Buffalo but ending at the CT in the heart of the East Side really do anything? I mean it would most likely provide funds to restore the CT, but what return does that provide?

    If you were a business owner looking to put back offices in WNY, would you select Rochester where you could build or lease within blocks of the station or Buffalo where you would have to take a cab from the station to downtown.


    I think the CT should be restored and be the center off a "mid-town" if you will. But I just do not see the benefit of having HS rail end there...outside of making it easy to find funds to restore it.

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    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    It's an interesting question. I'm hoping if they do move ahead with a rail plan (big IF) that they also include future expansionion towards Toronto. Linking us with Albany doesn't seem like a major economic boost to me. Linking us with Toronto could be amazing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    Mike,

    On BuffaloPundit, you mentioned that you spoke with Rep. Slaughter on the phone and she claimed to be 100% behind the Central Terminal being the focus of a station for any potential HS rail in New York State.

    My question is don't you see this a just a bad of move as putting the Bills in OP, building the 33 and not finding a reuse for the CT earlier?
    An interesting question. 'sup left? But first. . .
    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    Consider that Louise Slaughter does not represent Buffalo. She represents Rochester and Niagara county. She has no vested interest in making Buffalo the best city.
    Really? Perhaps you should check out "teh earmuff" district she inhabits. She was my congresscritter for years when I lived in Allentown and the Central Terminal is in her gerrymandered district. Personally speaking, her office seems to be much easier to interact with than my current rep's (Higgins) office. But that's neither here nor there, I'm just pointing that out.
    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    Now IF, and we both know this is a big IF, NYS were to get HS rail, the line would come from NYC to Albany and down the line to Buffalo. According to a story in 2001, Slaughter was in favor of HS rail in Rochester to be located at the current site of their Amtrak station. This station is .5 miles from DT Rochester.

    On the other side, the CT in Buffalo is in a HORRIBLE location. It was placed there at a time when people thought Buffalo was going to be a city of 3-5Million people. As we know...this is never going to happen. The CT in Buffalo is almost 2.5 miles from downtown and is located next to NOTHING that regional transportation would warrant.

    My question to you is two fold. Anyone else can jump in.
    *walks to end of diving board*
    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    1 - Do you think it is a mistake to make the CT the hub for HS rail in Buffalo. If not...why?
    I with you here. IMO, the CT is too far removed from downtown proper to be that viable as a rail hub. However there is an argument to be made for doing as much. First, any HS rail would, as most east/west trains do, pass through the terminal. The infrastructure is already there and just needs to be rehabbed something fierce. Obviously, without corresponding connecting light rails and whatnot, it would be a dumb place, again IMO, to put the hub. For the time being, I would be fine with expanding the Exchange St. station or the the Elk and Michigan (like you stated below). As for the bigger picture, there may be a real and valuable use for the CT in the future, but until we upgrade and expand our sad state of local rail infrastructure it's just not tenable, IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    2 - Do you think their is a slight chance that Rep. Slaughter wants the terminal in Buffalo to be so far from DT that Rochester, which is in her district, would look more attractive to regional business travel. A city center to city center type situation.
    Again, they are both in her district. And I doubt this would be her motivation. If you peruse her voting record and past public statements, she seems to be a believer in the interconnectedness of urban areas. I don't see anything in her record that would indicate she would sacrifice one set on constituents for another.

    That being said, it's worth noting that Exchange St. and the Elk and Michigan locations are in Higgins' district.
    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    Persoally for me, I think the best location for a HS terminal in Buffalo is close to the site of an old terminal. A Michigan and Elk terminal would service downtown the best AND help with the growth of DT Buffalo much more. Even if the HS terminal were located here, it could still connect to the CT and airport on it's way to Rochester.

    Maybe there would be a way to piggy-back the construction of the HS rail with a second line for the Buffalo metro? Just curious.
    I think the metro rail should be the most important of these debates right now. HS rail, if it becomes a reality, will pass through the Buffalo area regardless - that's where the tracks. The joke that is the light rail needs to be expanded to accommodate more of the region. Using existing rail infrastructure, it could be easily, relatively, expanded to serve most of the first ring suburbs and many of the 2nd and 3rd rings.

    Of course the NFTA had just recently done some, IMO, dumb things by divesting themselves of some of the rail infrastructure they held for such an expansion just a year or so ago. Making the expansion into Tonawanda and that area a real and costly headache (way to go, NFTA!).
    One beautiful thing about having a government of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations is that every disaster is measured in terms of economic loss. It's sort of like getting your arm sheared off in a car accident and thinking, "Damn, now it'll take longer to fold the laundry" as blood spurts from your arteries. - The Rude Pundit

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    Quote Originally Posted by raoul duke View Post
    An interesting question. 'sup left? But first. . .

    Really? Perhaps you should check out "teh earmuff" district she inhabits. She was my congresscritter for years when I lived in Allentown and the Central Terminal is in her gerrymandered district. Personally speaking, her office seems to be much easier to interact with than my current rep's (Higgins) office. But that's neither here nor there, I'm just pointing that out.

    WOW. I stand corrected. That is one jacked district. For some reason I was thinking it ended in Niagara County.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    WOW. I stand corrected. That is one jacked district. For some reason I was thinking it ended in Niagara County.
    Naw, it just passes through the county grabbing the poorer parts the state Republicans didn't give a lick of spit about regardless.

    I remember reading somewhere that the whole issue ended up being a miscalculation on the part of the Republicans. Amo Houghton's district (which was the 31st, I believe) was going to be eliminated with the bulk of the western end going to the 27th district, then occupied by Jack Quinn. The thinking being that in order to avoid political warfare, they would concede urban areas to Democrats to concentrate on reliable GOP voters in the rural areas. Then Higgins (albeit, a JV Democrat, at best) won Quinn's seat and, like Quinn, name recognition alone will make it his until he finds something better to do - which I hope is soon. Add to that the 29th district was being overhauled that census, also. But I never followed it that much so I don't know how much that affected it - though I'll bet it was a lot.
    One beautiful thing about having a government of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations is that every disaster is measured in terms of economic loss. It's sort of like getting your arm sheared off in a car accident and thinking, "Damn, now it'll take longer to fold the laundry" as blood spurts from your arteries. - The Rude Pundit

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    Hi Left,

    There are several advantages to having high speed rail (HSR) come to the Central Terminal:

    1. Logistically, it makes sense. The railroad rights-of-way are already there and CSX and Amtrak are already on board.

    2. The rail infrastructure for HSR requires more space than traditional rail lines and would make entry into the city proper more difficult.

    3. The Central Terminal is a perfect intermodal transportation facility because it was designed as such. In a final configuration, it would be the ideal park and ride, and could house an Amtrak station, NFTA metro rail station, bus stop and taxis.

    4. It's 2 and 1/2 mile distance from the city proper is not as much of a deterrent as is often mentioned. By car, from the radial streets (Genesee, Broadway, Sycamore, William) it takes just about 5 minutes. From a metro rail service that would be about half that.

    5. Federal funding (besides any bailout money) to rehab the terminal as an intermodal transportation facility is available. Any remaining rehab could attract private investment for hotel, retail or office space.

    We met with a representative from Louise's office last week. There is definite interest and support.
    “Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” - Margaret Mead

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    To be honest, why is this high speed rail even worth the money? Will their be a HUGE rush from people in NYC, Albany or Boston to come to Buffalo? Or will it provide an easier way for more people to leave?

    Why should we spend BILLIONS on a track that will obvioulsy be run by AMTRAK which is already a government run "co-operation"?
    "I know you guys enjoy reading my stuff because it all makes sense. "

    Dumbest post ever! Thanks for the laugh PO!

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    To be honest, why is this high speed rail even worth the money? Will their be a HUGE rush from people in NYC, Albany or Boston to come to Buffalo? Or will it provide an easier way for more people to leave?
    This is a fair question. One can only speculate as to how "worth" it high speed rail will be a few years from now.

    If you liken the advent of highways and air travel to the adverse affects it had on rail travel in the late '40's and early '50's, you can see where the conversation would lead: rising oil prices, congested highways and airways etc.

    We won't know if high speed rail will be worth it, just as we didn't know that highways or air travel would end up being worth it. It's all a semi-educated guess.
    “Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” - Margaret Mead

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post

    We won't know if high speed rail will be worth it, just as we didn't know that highways or air travel would end up being worth it. It's all a semi-educated guess.
    Well anyone with a brain could tell you highways and air travel would be successful. Both at the times were NEW technology. With highways, people could travel quicker and more direct to new areas and additionally if provided the need from MANY car mfg to build better faster and more safer cars. As far as air travel, well flying from Detriot to Amsterdam takes 8 hours while driving from Det. to NYC and taking a boat over seas to france then driving would take WEEKS. The ONLY addvantage for high speed rail would be SHORT trips say Albany to Buffalo or NYC or NYC to DC or Boston, where you don't have to check in 1 hours ahead of time and worry about taxieing after. You could cut a short Boston to NYC flight from 3 hours to maybe 1.5.

    However, with air and planes, people have been so used to these technologies and have been using them for YEARS as the train has faided away and in fact as i said is a GOVT run busniness. I just dont' see the benefit of spending BILLIONs on a rail between Albany and buffalo their is no NEED for it. I COULD see a reason for a Toronto to Buffalo to Clev Rail as these are two MAJOR cities!
    "I know you guys enjoy reading my stuff because it all makes sense. "

    Dumbest post ever! Thanks for the laugh PO!

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    Well anyone with a brain could tell you highways and air travel would be successful.
    Not at the time, they couldn't. It was a leap of faith for New York to invest the huge amounts of money Robert Moses was asking for to implement the highway system. That was a MUCH bigger project than this will ever be.
    “Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” - Margaret Mead

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    Not at the time, they couldn't. It was a leap of faith for New York to invest the huge amounts of money Robert Moses was asking for to implement the highway system. That was a MUCH bigger project than this will ever be.
    Well wasn't most of the higway system done after WWII like the 90, 87, 88 and 86 and wasn't it FED dollars?
    "I know you guys enjoy reading my stuff because it all makes sense. "

    Dumbest post ever! Thanks for the laugh PO!

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    Well wasn't most of the higway system done after WWII like the 90, 87, 88 and 86 and wasn't it FED dollars?
    Yes, you are right about the interstates, local highways were state funded.

    A large part of HSR would be federal stimulus money too.
    “Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” - Margaret Mead

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    Yes, you are right about the interstates, local highways were state funded.

    A large part of HSR would be federal stimulus money too.
    But what it comes down to, is what true advantage would a govt funded system running from Albany to Buffalo provide vs somthing like Clev to buf to toronto?
    "I know you guys enjoy reading my stuff because it all makes sense. "

    Dumbest post ever! Thanks for the laugh PO!

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