Paper Ballots, etc.

[WNYresident]

Originally posted by 300miles
I don't understand why it relies on the DA's personal interest. If the law has been broken it should be prosecuted. Especially for something as big as an Election.

What would it take to force the issue? A lawsuit from a citizen/lawyer??

Doesn't the DA need endorsements? WOuld you bite the hand that gets you into office?

[LHardy]

Primary Challenge has filed a complaint.
The problem in EC is when an elected official breaks the law no one is prosecuted. It is time for the Feds to step in and stop this nonsense.
If nothing is done it maybe time for anarchy. What are they going to do? Say we broke the law? There are no laws in NYS if they fail to prosecute any of these obvious violations!
Someone may just have to burn down County Hall to get something done around here!

Oh and I like the quote that they had good reason to break the law. Try using that as your defense the next time you go to court!

[crlachepinochet]

Originally posted by LHardy
If nothing is done it maybe time for anarchy. What are they going to do? Say we broke the law? There are no laws in NYS if they fail to prosecute any of these obvious violations!
Someone may just have to burn down County Hall to get something done around here!

Good night, comrades.

[CindyLocklear]

What would it take to force the issue? A lawsuit from a citizen/lawyer??

I do know that under the Election Law, a candidate in a Primary Election has rights to sue in State Court, that a candidate in a General Election does not. I believe the standard is based on irregularities in the election process. But with this approach the emphasis would be on the results of that candidate's particular election and how election irregularities are claimed to have effected the outcome.

Generally, I have to say, that I have to defer to Jim O. on these issues as he is more knowledgeable than I as to who has standing to assert claims against the BOE for the illegal practices that have been admitted by Mr. Mohr in the media.

Cindy

[Jim Ostrowski]

Standing: a candidate would have it; not sure about a voter.

**************

They say there are 10,000 paper ballots.

About a fourth of the county used them--about 250 polling places.

10000/250 = 40.

40 ballots for each team of 4 (fully bugdeted) inspectors to count. Let's say they'd had a few pops. And left their glasses at home. And were octo--hell--80ish.

Ten minutes tops to count them!!!!!

Another example of politicians being full of bull.

And reason No. 62 why we need Free Buffalo. To blow the whistle when the Board of Elections makes it up as they go along instead of following the law.

One more thing. Where's Eliot Spitzer, that self-styled litigator on behalf of public integrity when you need him. His office was called on Election Day in response to this thread. A letter complaint was filed by PC on Friday. No action yet.

Is it that Eliot doesn't want to go against the local Democratic machine that has already (de facto) endorsed him for Guv?

So many questions; so little time.

[LHardy]

We also can not expect any help from our washington crowd.
Unless of course we all claim to be displaced from Katrina and can't get anyone at the attny. gen's office to help us!

[CindyLocklear]

About a fourth of the county used them--about 250 polling places.

In West Seneca, approximately 2600 paper ballots were cast according to the Town Clerk. There are 16 polling places in all of WS. That works out to approx 162 each. While not as light as your calculation, certainly manageable and easily counted at each of the polling sites by the OnSite inspectors, of which there were 2 for each election district at each polling place.

Cindy

[mikewrona]

Originally posted by Jim Ostrowski
If I heard Ralph Mohr correctly, they will not count paper ballots at the polling places.

This appears to flatly contradict state law.

I know there's a judge on call today. It would be nice if someone went to court and got an injunction. Not much time.

Does the Attorney General have jurisdiction?

(The provisions on what happens at the Board are less clear.)

Election Law--

S 9-100. Canvass; required. At the close of the polls the inspectors of election shall, in the order set forth herein, lock the machine against voting, account for the paper ballots, canvass the machine, cast and canvass all the ballots, canvass and ascertain the total vote and they shall not adjourn until the canvass be fully completed.

S 9-102. Canvass; general provisions for. 1. As soon as the polls of the election are closed, the inspectors of election thereat shall, in the order set forth herein; a.) lock the voting machine against voting;
b.) sign a certificate stating the number of voters as shown on the public counters, the number on the seal, the number registered on the protective counter, and that the voting machine is closed and locked;
c.) account for the paper ballots used, if any; d.) canvass the machine vote; e.) cast and canvass all the ballots.
2. * (a) The inspectors shall canvass the machine vote by opening the counting compartments in the presence of the watchers and all other persons who may be lawfully within the polling place, giving full view of all the counter numbers. The chairman of the board of inspectors shall, under the scrutiny of an inspector of a different political party, in the order of the offices as their titles are arranged on the machine, read and announce in distinct tones the designating number and letter on each counter and the result as shown by the counter number. If the voting machine records write-in votes on a register or roll in a separately sealed compartment, a board of elections may, by resolution adopted at least thirty days before the date of an election, determine to canvass the write-in votes cast for each office on the write-in register or roll either at the time of the recanvass conducted pursuant to section 9-208 of this article or direct that the chairman of the board of inspectors shall, under the scrutiny of an inspector of a different political party, read the votes recorded for each office on the write-in ballots at the close of the polls. He shall also in the same manner announce the vote on each ballot proposal. The vote as registered shall be entered on the returns of canvass in ink, by an inspector, other than the chairman, under the scrutiny of an inspector of a different political party, in the space which has the same designating number and letter, after which the figures shall be verified by being called off in the same manner from the counters of the machine by an inspector of opposite political faith from the chairman. The return of canvass, which shall show the total number of votes cast for each office, the number of votes cast for each candidate, as shown on his counter and the number of votes for persons not nominated shall then be filled out. Such return shall be signed by each inspector. The counter compartment of the voting machine shall remain open until the official returns and all other reports have been fully completed and verified by the board of inspectors.

3. (a) During the canvass time any candidate or duly accredited watcher who may desire to be present shall be admitted to the polling place. The proclamation of the result of the votes cast shall be deliberately announced in a distinct voice by the chairman of the board of inspectors who shall read the name of each candidate, with the designating number and letter of his counter, and the vote registered on such counter; also the vote cast for and against each ballot proposal.
During such proclamation ample opportunity shall be given to any person lawfully present to compare the results so announced with the counter dials of the machine or the numbers on the printed or photographic record and any necessary corrections shall then and there be made by the board, after which the doors of the voting machine shall be closed and locked. The first copy of the printed record for each voting machine which does not have counters shall be posted on the wall of the polling place forthwith provided however, that if only one copy of such printed record can be printed by any such machine at any election, such copy shall be used in preparation of the statement of returns required by this title. Before adjourning, the board shall, with the seal provided therefor, so seal the operating lever of the machine that the voting and counting mechanism will be prevented from operation.
(b) Paper ballots and emergency ballots cast during voting machine breakdowns which have been voted shall then be canvassed and tallied, the vote thereon for each candidate and ballot proposal, announced and added to the vote as recorded on the return of canvass.
(c) Absentee and military, special federal, and special presidential ballots shall then be canvassed and tallied, the vote thereon for each candidate announced and added to the vote as recorded on the statement of canvass and a final proclamation made as to the total vote received by each candidate and ballot proposal.
(d) At a primary election, the ballots of the parties represented on the board of inspectors shall be canvassed before the ballots of other parties are canvassed.
4. All types of ballots, enclosed in properly sealed envelopes respectively, and properly endorsed shall be filed with the original return of canvass.
5. The inspector filing the returns shall deliver to the board or officer from whom received, the keys of the voting machine, enclosed in a sealed envelope having indorsed thereon a certificate of the inspectors stating the number of the machine, the election district, ward or assembly district where it has been used, the number on the seal and the number on the protective counter.
6. The room in which such canvass is made shall be clearly lighted, ingress and egress through the main entrance thereto shall be freely permitted, and such canvass shall be made in plain view of those entitled to be present. The ballots shall at all times be kept on top of the table and in plain view of all persons entitled to examine them, until they have been tied into bundles as elsewhere provided. If requested by any person entitled to be present the inspectors shall, during the canvass of any ballots, exhibit to him the ballot then being canvassed, fully opened and in such a condition that he may fully and carefully read and examine it, but no inspector shall allow any ballot to be taken from his hand or to be touched by any person but an inspector.

My interpretation of "Account for the paper ballots" to mean - identify the number of ballots cast at the location, and not to mean count and tally the individual votes for each candidate on each ballot.

Not even during the age of the paper ballot were the vote totals immediately tallied the day of the election. Nor was it expected.

[LHardy]

Not even during the age of the paper ballot were the vote totals immediately tallied the day of the election. Nor was it expected.

According to a former BOE poll inspector, they did count paper ballots the night of the elections at the voting districts in the 1950's.

[Jim Ostrowski]

The state board of elections and Ed Mahoney, former commissioner for many years, agreed that the ballots should have been counted at the polling places.

[CindyLocklear]

My interpretation of "Account for the paper ballots" to mean - identify the number of ballots cast at the location, and not to mean count and tally the individual votes for each candidate on each ballot.

Section 9-100 is pretty clear on the order of steps to be followed a the polling place immediately upon closing:

Canvass; required

At the close of the polls the inspectors of election shall, in the order set forth herein,
1. lock the machine against voting,
2. account for the paper ballots,
3. canvass the machine,
4. cast and canvass all the ballots,
5. canvass and ascertain the total vote

and they shall not adjourn until the canvass be fully completed.

With regard to step no. 2 "account for the paper ballots" the Election Law contains an entire Section at 9-106 which specifies the required procedure. What it is doing is mandating the accounting of both used and UNUSED paper ballots to make sure that extra ballots dont show up in the ballot box. It is a housekeeping function.

I think step 4 "cast and canvass ALL THE BALLOTS" is the provision of the Election Law that mandates counting at the polling site. That and the directive "they shall not adjourn until the canvass be fully completed.

Cindy

[mikewrona]

Originally posted by CindyLocklear
My interpretation of "Account for the paper ballots" to mean - identify the number of ballots cast at the location, and not to mean count and tally the individual votes for each candidate on each ballot.

Section 9-100 is pretty clear on the order of steps to be followed a the polling place immediately upon closing:

Canvass; required

At the close of the polls the inspectors of election shall, in the order set forth herein,
1. lock the machine against voting,
2. account for the paper ballots,
3. canvass the machine,
4. cast and canvass all the ballots,
5. canvass and ascertain the total vote

and they shall not adjourn until the canvass be fully completed.

With regard to step no. 2 "account for the paper ballots" the Election Law contains an entire Section at 9-106 which specifies the required procedure. What it is doing is mandating the accounting of both used and UNUSED paper ballots to make sure that extra ballots dont show up in the ballot box. It is a housekeeping function.

I think step 4 "cast and canvall ALL THE BALLOTS" is the provision of the Election Law that mandates counting at the polling site. That and the directive "they shall not adjourn until the canvass be fully completed.

Cindy

We probably have a disagreement over what is the definition of a "ballot"

My limited command of the English language tells me that a ballot is the sheet of paper or a card used to cast or register a vote and not the individual votes marked on that ballot.

I believe there is a difference between counting ballots and counting votes.

[CindyLocklear]

My limited command of the English language tells me that a ballot is the sheet of paper or a card used to cast or register a vote and not the individual votes marked on that ballot.

"canvass and ascertain the TOTAL VOTE"

[mikewrona]

Originally posted by LHardy
Not even during the age of the paper ballot were the vote totals immediately tallied the day of the election. Nor was it expected.

According to a former BOE poll inspector, they did count paper ballots the night of the elections at the voting districts in the 1950's.

That may be so, I don't know for sure. I started voting in the 60's and it was on a machine.

I still think the problem is over the meaning of "ballot"
If 608 people sign to vote, the polling station must have 608 ballots. I think that is to what the count refers. But, I'm not an English scholar.

[mikewrona]

Originally posted by CindyLocklear
My limited command of the English language tells me that a ballot is the sheet of paper or a card used to cast or register a vote and not the individual votes marked on that ballot.

"canvass and ascertain the TOTAL VOTE"

Ooops, I missed the last part. Now that is interesting.