Just who is going to build what on the Outer Harbor

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

There has been countless debates on the outer harbor.

Should the skyway come down or should it stay. Should it be green space or should it be converted to a "Manhattan On The Lake" as Linda calls it.

So I was reading the Pundit today and he had a very interesting post.

Now I am not talking about the language of "the wall" but rather the comments on what the Buffalo River Keepers think the outer harbor should look like.

Added to this, BP made a comment on BRO. His comment "I'd much prefer to have government provide a street grid and utility service to that area, and then zone it to ensure it ends up looking like what people want it to look like. Then, let people do the work whenever the need/demand is there." Got me to thinking.

I agree that the outer harbor should have a street grid placed on it and development should fill in the grid. The challenge is we all have our ideas of what the Outer Harbor should look like. Depending on what you think about the skyway, the street grid will look different.

The Buffalo River Keeper plan calls for the lake side of the project to be mostly green space and the development to be focused mostly on the river side of the project.

I have a different idea of how the grid should work. The difference would be to focus development into a core and surround it with park space. The Lake Views would go for taxpaying property not guests to the land.

Both images are below.


Anyways, in all of this discussion WE HAVE NEVER HEARD FROM THE MOST IMPORTANT PEOPLE. THE DEVELOPERS. Nobody has gone to the people who will actually develop this land to ASK WHAT THEY WANT. After all, if what is done is not to developers liking...guess what kids....NO DEVELOPMENT HAPPENS.

Why the hell has Higgins, Brown, Norquest or Kearns bothered to ask DEVELOPERS what they want?

Is anyone else puzzled by this?

[HipKat]

That artist's rendering is what I always envision, with a touch of this:






Without the Palm trees...

[JustRetired]

"Capt's Landing", (second pic down), a floating restaurant on the St. Lawrence Seaway in Alexandria Bay, New York. Built on a large barge, tied to shore, but it is floating. Good food, good times, open year around. Would be nice to see something like that.

If I remember correctly, many years ago, Buffalo did have a floating restaurant, an old paddle wheeler, but I don't remember the name. Had some sort of bubble system around it to keep the ice from forming next to the boat.

[therising]

who is going to build what on the Outer Harbor

No, Who is building Where.

[Linda_D]

"Capt's Landing", (second pic down), a floating restaurant on the St. Lawrence Seaway in Alexandria Bay, New York. Built on a large barge, tied to shore, but it is floating. Good food, good times, open year around. Would be nice to see something like that.

If I remember correctly, many years ago, Buffalo did have a floating restaurant, an old paddle wheeler, but I don't remember the name. Had some sort of bubble system around it to keep the ice from forming next to the boat.

I remember that paddle wheeler. I can't remember the name of it, either, but it was moored at the foot of Hertel Avenue. The problem was that either the hull rotted (made of wood) or the ice wrecked it. I remember seeing it listing for a while.

Barges are tougher than boats, maybe because they're rectangles or something like that, so a barge would be a better choice for a restaurant than a boat, I think. Isn't that barge still in the Niagara River above the Falls? I think it's been there for like 40 years or more. They build house boats on barges in places like Seattle.

[Sylvan]

A grandstand for watching the American Power Boat Association "off shore" and "grand prix" boat racing.

[300miles]

Anyways, in all of this discussion WE HAVE NEVER HEARD FROM THE MOST IMPORTANT PEOPLE. THE DEVELOPERS. Nobody has gone to the people who will actually develop this land to ASK WHAT THEY WANT. After all, if what is done is not to developers liking...guess what kids....NO DEVELOPMENT HAPPENS.

Why the hell has Higgins, Brown, Norquest or Kearns bothered to ask DEVELOPERS what they want?

Is anyone else puzzled by this?

They already did ask developers. That was where they got the 3 big plans to framework how the outer harbor could be developed, and what phases to do first. They were national or international developers and planners, partnered with local developers.

Then they selected one of the plans.

Then it disappeared into oblivion

[Sylvan]

They already did ask developers. That was where they got the 3 big plans to framework how the outer harbor could be developed, and what phases to do first. They were national or international developers and planners, partnered with local developers.

Then they selected one of the plans.

Then it disappeared into oblivion

Oh yeah, I remember that. lol

[HipKat]

I remember that paddle wheeler. I can't remember the name of it, either, but it was moored at the foot of Hertel Avenue. The problem was that either the hull rotted (made of wood) or the ice wrecked it. I remember seeing it listing for a while.

Barges are tougher than boats, maybe because they're rectangles or something like that, so a barge would be a better choice for a restaurant than a boat, I think. Isn't that barge still in the Niagara River above the Falls? I think it's been there for like 40 years or more. They build house boats on barges in places like Seattle.

They build Casino's on barges, too in River towns

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

They already did ask developers. That was where they got the 3 big plans to framework how the outer harbor could be developed, and what phases to do first. They were national or international developers and planners, partnered with local developers.

Then they selected one of the plans.

Then it disappeared into oblivion

Do you have more info on this? Around when did this happen?

[300miles]

Do you have more info on this? Around when did this happen?

Very recently... like 2004 or 2005. It was a fairly big deal. The plans were for the entire outer harbor and there were some interesting concepts. I went to the public meeting downtown at the WNED building where they had the renderings on display and presentations were made.

I can't remember all the details now, but I think what happened was all the plans required better access to the waterfront first. So basically, no development could start until more bridges were built or whatever was best to make it easier to access. This was the city's responsibility, not the developer's... although I think they made suggestions.

Then there was the whole issue about the NFTA owning the land in the first place.

There were also complaints that not enough land was kept for public access to the waterfront... and it turning into another Erie Basin Marina : all wealthy condos / offices. Although the complaints were not what stopped it.

I can't find the renderings ... but I'll see if I can find them online somewhere tomorrow.

[300miles]

Oh... and there were also big questions on cost. The plans were big, and so the cost was equally big. So there were valid questions about how realistic they were.

[Timmy]

it must be said when one thinks of the future of Buffalo that the future of downtown Buffalo will be south along the Buffalo River all the way to Hamburg Street.

it must be said when one thinks of the future of Buffalo that the future of downtown Buffalo will be east toward the airport first eastward toward Michican, then eastward to Jefferson, the eastward to Fillmore.

the future of downtown will not be between Main and Niagara as this area will increasingly be Buffalo's most historic district limited to infill only though Niagara Street will eventually fill with office buildings seeking the waterfront views.

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

Oh... and there were also big questions on cost. The plans were big, and so the cost was equally big. So there were valid questions about how realistic they were.

So I started to dig a little.

From January of 2004, Schumer WHILE WORKING WITH BRIAN HIGGINS announced that the Outer Harbor should follow the same design patterns of Battery Park City. The main nuts of the proposal are based on proportions.

• 42% residential housing
• 30% designated open space
• 19% designated for streets and avenues;
• and the remaining 9% for commercial use

A couple of months later...Schumer visited Buffalo and told Buffalo the secret sauce of Battery Park. And I quote...

"Battery Park City (BPC) is a planned community in southwestern Manhattan of 92 acres, nearly 30 of which are permanently protected open space. The development of the site, which was built on a landfill comprised of the fill from the World Trade Center's construction, has raised property values in the surrounding area dramatically."

Gee...NYC had 90 acres and the outer harbor is 120. Gee...Building over landfill is almost like building over Brownfields!

Later in this article Schumer says....

To develop Battery Park City, streets and sidewalks were returned to grade level and made an extension of Manhattan´s grid (as had been done in all earlier landfill expansions of lower Manhattan). This created conventional development blocks, which, in turn, led to conventional building forms. Each block could be parceled out to different developers at different times, according to market demand. Because the plan was more a framework for development than a fixed design, there was a great deal of flexibility in actual execution and that has served as a basis to bring a diversity of uses, buildings and parks to Battery Park City.

Then less then a year later....

I found on the WNY Coalition for progress blog from January of 2005.
"The team is made up of Opus Group of Minneapolis, Uniland Development of Amherst, VOA Associates of Chicago, Urban Retail Properties of Chicago and BIDCO of Buffalo. The marquee elements of its $750 million proposal include:

- A 300,000-square-foot convention center
- A 3,500-room convention hotel and winter garden complex
- More than 1,000 apartments, townhouses and condominiums
- A 215,000-square-foot sports center
- A 4,500-seat amphitheater
- A 150-suite hotel/water park/aquarium complex
- A 500,000-square-foot festival pavilion
- 200,000 square feet of Class A office space and
- 236 boat slips.

Then I found this article in the New York Times from 2006 which says "Still, many people think this time might be the real thing. Buffalo has a new mayor, Byron W. Brown, who has aggressively pitched the city’s potential from California to Massachusetts. There is financial support from the state and federal governments, spurring highway projects and cleanups of polluted former industrial sites."

SO WHO DID BROWN SPEAK WITH FROM CALIFORNIA TO MASSACHUSETTS? Just what did those developers say? Lastly, WHY THE HELL IS BROWN NOT PRESENTING TO THE PUBLIC WHAT THEY SAID?


So here is how I see it. A Senator tells Buffalo and BRIAN HIGGINS to follow the Battery Park plan and starts looking for money. He advises to make an AT GRADE STREET GRID and ZONE RIGHT and development will come.

Then the NFTA goes out and gets a MEGA PLAN that puts the focus on development in the hands of a couple of developers. WHICH IS THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT WORKED AT BATTERY PARK.


Then the usual suspects get involved from Buffalo and attack the MEGA PLANS from the developers and they walk away from the project.

When this happens, Brown goes out and looks for NEW DEVELOPERS but NOTHING comes from it. HE never reports his findings....

Now, almost 4 years after the project really got going, Buffalo, and more importantly politicians like Brian Higgins, has NOTHING TO SHOW FOR FOUR YEARS OF "WORK". Nothing has been done on the outer harbor. Brian Higgins, who was around from DAY 1 needs to get SOMETHING DONE...ANYTHING DONE as he has been working on this for almost 4 years.

Since the developers are not interested in the Outer Harbor....FOR REASONS WE DO NOT KNOW...the only thing Higgins can push through is a plan THAT IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT HAS WORKED IN THE PAST!!!!!







Only in Buffalo folks!!!!

[CSense]

I've been looking up some info also, I think some of these maybe interesting......

http://www.nfta.com/outer_harbor_development.asp

http://www.buffalonywaterfront.com/index.html

http://www.nfta.com/OH_props/westend.html

http://www.nfta.com/OH_props/norstar.html

http://www.nfta.com/OH_props/BLTD.html