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Thread: School Budget Failed

  1. #31
    Member literal's Avatar
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    Quick.... the deadline is fast approaching to nominate your stellar school board member for his/her award........


    The 2011 Distinguished Service Award




    Seeking the best of the best

    We're looking for an exemplary school board member who has made outstanding contributions to public education. Know someone who fits the bill? Then nominate that person for NYSSBA's prestigious Everett R. Dyer Distinguished Service Award for School Board Service.

    The winner will be honored at NYSSBA's Annual Convention.

    Click here for the Distinguished School Board Service Guidelines and Nomination Form.

    Questions?
    Please contact Barbara Bradley at NYSSBA at (800) 342-3360 or (518) 783-3719, or barbara.bradley@nyssba.org

    DEADLINE for submitting nominations is June 1. Don't delay!
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  2. #32
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    Not a chance this doesn't pass this time. Do you really think all those in the 1st ward that came out to vote and were told what/who to vote are actually going to come out again?

    Take away those votes plus the extra ones the board members are going to go out and get, it will pas by 400 votes.

    And if not, why not just have an election until it passes???

  3. #33
    Member dtwarren's Avatar
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    What is the difference (in $$$) between the proposed budget and the contingency budget?
    “We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate.” ― Thomas Jefferson

  4. #34
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    By Pilar Sokol
    Deputy General Counsel

    Following the public hearing on a proposed school budget, a school district must mail a budget notice to all qualified voters. That notice must, in part, compare total spending under the proposed budget and a projected contingency budget if the voters reject the proposed budget.

    Contingency budgets are subject to statutory caps that limit the amount by which such a budget may exceed the district budget for the prior year. Increases
    in a contingency budget over a prior year's budget are limited to 4 percent, or 120 percent of the Consumer Price Index (CPI), whichever is less.

    Appeal of Hansen presented the commissioner of education with the question of whether a district acted unlawfully when it stated in its budget notice a percentage increase under the contingency budget of 4.78 percent - a figure which, according to the petitioner, exceeded the CPI-based contingency budget cap for the year in question. The commissioner ruled in favor of the district.

    According to the commissioner, the contingency budget cap applies to increases in "total spending," which the law defines as the total amount appropriated under the school district budget for the school year excluding certain expenses often referred to as mandated exclusions or excludables. Specified by statute, these include emergency, nonrecurring or capital expenditures, among others.

    To determine the increase in spending for an upcoming school year in the event of a contingency budget, a district must first calculate the prior year's base by:

    •Subtracting from the prior year's adopted budget the mandated exclusions for that year; and
    •Multiplying the remainder by the lesser of 4 percent or 120 percent of the CPI.
    The next step is to add the mandated exclusions for the upcoming school year to the prior year's base to determine how total spending under an authorized proposed budget would compare with the projected contingency budget.

    The percentage increase in the contingency budget needs to include expenditures otherwise excludable from the cap in order to accomplish "the purpose of the budget notice requirement ... to compare the impact of the proposed budget with the impact of a contingency budget."

    Therefore, a percentage increase in a contingency budget over a prior year's budget may exceed the cap due to the inclusion of mandated excludables without violating the cap on total spending.
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  5. #35
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    ALBANY — Pledging to provide relief to highly taxed suburban homeowners, Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo and legislative leaders said Tuesday that they had agreed to place a 2 percent limit on property tax increases in a plan that rivals the toughest such measures in the nation.


    Editorial: Reject the Tax Cap (May 26, 2011) The proposed property tax cap, which must be approved by the Legislature, is aimed at reversing the economic decline in many parts of the state outside of New York City. It also seeks to curb soaring property tax bills in areas like Long Island, Westchester County and pockets of upstate New York, where residents are facing some of the country’s highest property taxes.

    Some residents, particularly those who are older and live on fixed incomes, are being forced out of their homes by rising property taxes.

    “It is going to be a game changer, and it’s going to change the trajectory of this state,” Mr. Cuomo said.

    New York has long had some of the highest property taxes in the nation, and those taxes increased by 5.5 percent, on average, each year from 1999 to 2009, according to statistics provided by the Cuomo administration.

    The Tax Foundation, a nonpartisan research group, said this month that three of the five highest-taxed counties in the nation were in New York: Nassau, Westchester and Rockland Counties. In Nassau and Westchester, the median annual property tax bill exceeds $8,000.

    The tax-cap agreement was welcomed by business and farm groups, but teachers’ unions reacted with dismay, saying the move would cause cuts to money for education and would diminish the quality of public schools. The unions pointed to California as an example, saying a property tax cap and broader budget woes have had a harmful effect on schools in that state.

    “New York would be devastated by the toughest cap in the nation at a time when its public schools have suffered three years of the toughest cuts to education,” said Richard C. Iannuzzi, president of New York State United Teachers. “There’s no question this strikes at the heart of the educational needs of the most vulnerable students, especially children of color and children who live in poverty.”

    The agreement gives the Democratic governor, who made limiting property tax increases a cornerstone of his campaign, his biggest political victory since the Legislature approved an on-time and relatively austere budget in March, and it further establishes Mr. Cuomo’s record of fiscal conservatism.

    The agreement, which would take effect next year, would limit the annual increase in the overall amount of property taxes collected by a local government or a school district. Property tax increases for individual homeowners could vary as properties are reassessed.

    “This issue is probably the most powerful and pervasive issue across this state,” the governor said at an appearance with legislative leaders on Tuesday. “People in New York City don’t feel it, but I can’t tell you how many times somebody has come up to me and said, ‘You have to do something about property taxes; I just can’t afford to stay in my home anymore.’ ”

    The Assembly speaker, Sheldon Silver, a Manhattan Democrat, has said the tax cap should be approved only in concert with the renewal, and the strengthening, of rent-stabilization regulations in New York City. But Mr. Cuomo, who supports strengthening rent stabilization, and the Senate majority leader, Dean G. Skelos, a Republican from Long Island who does not, said they did not believe the rent issue would jeopardize the passage of a property tax cap before the scheduled end of the legislative session, June 20.

    Forty-three other states have some limits on property taxes. But New York is unusual because property taxes are the main source of support for schools outside of New York City. In the city, the schools are primarily financed by a municipal income tax.

    While some details remain to be worked out, particularly the length of time before the legislation expires, legislative leaders in both parties said they were confident that a final agreement was at hand.

    “This is a great day,” said Mr. Skelos, adding, “New York State once again can be competitive in creating jobs, and rather than exporting people, bringing people to the state.”

    Mr. Silver said, “With this legislation, we are finally able to bring property taxes under control and still provide critical services.”
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  6. #36
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    Every resident had a budget mailed to them and what the contingency budget would be if the vote failed.

    If you do not have a copy I am sure the Board Clerk will mail a copy to you!
    Just call the office.....
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  7. #37
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    I didn't receive a budget and do not know anyone that did.

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    As you know, the Lackawanna School Board has requested ANOTHER VOTE to pass the school budget...this one will be on June 23rd, I believe.

    On the Channel 9 News website under "School budget vote. What message will taxpayers send to districts?" there are several thought-provoking comments:

    "A teacher in Baldwinsville retired with $20,000.00 in saved time.This IS A PROBLEM!!!! The teachers would NOT take a pay freeze to save jobs. Now, retired teachers are coming in as subs, and taking jobs from the younger teachers...that aren't BURNT OUT! This isn't right. School spending is out of control everywhere.It has to be reeled in!"

    "...My guess is as every year most parents with kids in the school system and all the teachers will "Rubberstamp" this thing through again. It just comes down to some (Not all) of the salaries are out of whack and of course the pensions are out of control..."

    "A number of other districts didn't pass their budgets....at least the voters in those places had the guts to stand up the to teacher's union and the school boards that would have them give up more money. This is the highest taxed state in the country, and people are leaving in droves."

  9. #39
    Member dtwarren's Avatar
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    What I find interesting is that the Board could have just adopted the contingency budget after the proposed budget was rejected. So what is in the proposed budget that is not in the contingency budget. Why have the expense of another election on the budget? If the proposed budget is defeated at this next election the contingency budget automatically goes into effect.
    “We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate.” ― Thomas Jefferson

  10. #40
    Member literal's Avatar
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    Like I said...a contingency budget does not permit any new hires. The Board does not like this because they like to give people jobs. A contingency budget ties their hands from hiring new employees.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by cath829 View Post
    I didn't receive a budget and do not know anyone that did.
    Hmmmmm.....

    When I lived there (a year ago) I always got a copy (usually a one page mailing) of the proposed budget vs. a contingency budget. Always mailed to registered voter/taxpayer.

    That information is prepared by Sam Masry, the Business Administrator. Every district has a budget presentation open to the public. The actual budget is as long as a book and available to any/all taxpayers who request it.
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  12. #42
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    EDUCATION LAWS are many and very long....... Happy Reading!!

    Note at the very end Budget Law 2022 requiring notice of budget to taxpayers

    Contingency Budgets This article is intended to serve as an introduction to contingency budgets. Much more in-depth information regarding the budgeting process, including adoption and monitoring of a budget may be found at http://www.p12.nysed.gov/mgtserv/budgeting/. Excerpts from documents found at that website are included here.

    At the end of this document is a selected list and description of sections of Education Law and Regulations of the Commissioner of Education that govern the budgeting process. It is not an all inclusive list but is intended to give the reader a starting point for legal references. In addition, we have included samples of calculating a contingency budget cap and an administrative component cap. Both are described in the paragraphs below. A chart showing how categories of school district expenses are to be divided for the purpose of the three-part budget is also included.

    What are the rules regarding a contingency budget?
    Duty to Present Budget to Voters
    All school districts, except the Big Five city school districts (New York, Rochester, Buffalo, Yonkers and Syracuse), must present a budget to district voters for approval each year (in the Big Five city school districts budgets are not approved by the voters but rather are part of the city budget developed and approved by the mayor and the city council). This initial vote must be held on the third Tuesday of May. Boards of Education are required to prepare budgets in plain language and delineated into three components: Administrative, Program and Capital. Education Law and Regulations of the Commissioner of Education define the types of expenses that make up each of these three components (see chart at end). All costs needed to fund the education program must be included in each component to ensure that voters will have a clear understanding of the proposed budget (see 2/21/2006 memo regarding separate propositions from Jean C. Stevens at: Annual School District Budget). If a majority of voters approve the budget, the district may spend in accordance with its approved plan.

    Defeated Budgets and Budget Revote
    Should the voters defeat the budget, the district has the option of offering a revised budget to voters for a revote, or immediately adopting a contingency budget. Districts are only allowed one budget revote to be held on the third Tuesday in June. If the budget fails a second time, then the Board of Education must adopt a contingency budget before July 1st. In the case of a contingency budget, districts are constrained in two ways – determination of ordinary contingency budget appropriations and the statutory caps. Ordinary contingency expenses are defined as the expenditures absolutely necessary to operate and maintain schools (except for those items over which the statutes themselves either provide mandates for or give discretion to the board of education).

    Budget Caps
    Since 1998, school districts operating under a contingency budget are subject to two caps. First, the overall increase in the total budget, with certain exclusions, is capped at the lesser of 120 percent multiplied by the average of the national consumer price indexes (CPI) determined by the U.S. Department of Labor for the 12 month period preceding January first of the current year or four percent. Second, the administrative component of the budget is capped at the lesser of (1) the percent of the administrative component to the total budget in the prior year’s budget, not including the capital component, or (2) the percent that the administrative component comprised in the last proposed defeated budget for the subsequent year, not including the capital component. (A sample calculation of the contingency budget cap and administrative component cap may be found in Appendices I and II, respectively.)

    Spending Not Subject to Restriction
    Education Law section 2023 identifies the following expenses to be excluded from the calculation of the budget cap:

    i.Expenditures resulting from a tax certiorari proceeding;
    ii.Expenditures resulting from a court order or judgment against the school district;
    iii.Emergency expenditures that are certified by the commissioner as necessary as a result of damage to, or destruction of, a school building or school equipment;
    iv.Capital expenditures resulting from the construction, acquisition, reconstruction, rehabilitation or improvement of school facilities, including debt service and lease expenditures, subject to the approval of the qualified voters where required by law; this also includes debt service for the purchase of school buses.
    v.Expenses relating to increases in total public school enrollment, including pre-k, from the prior year;
    vi.Non-recurring expenditures in the prior year's school district budget;
    vii.Expenditures for payments to charter schools pursuant to section twenty-eight hundred fifty-six of this chapter; and
    viii.Self-Supporting Privately Funded Programs.
    What steps do districts follow to calculate their contingency budget?
    1.Calculate the adjusted base budget.
    2.Multiply this adjusted base budget amount for the prior year by the CPI to determine the subsequent year contingency budget amount.
    3.Determine the amount of non-contingency and contingency items that would need to be removed from the contingency budget.
    4.Finally, check the administrative component to ensure it stays within statutory limits.
    The Office of Educational Management Services posts on its website a sample spreadsheet developed by a school business official to guide districts through the calculation of their contingency budgets (see CONTINGENT BUDGET CAP WORKSHEET (22 KB) and at the end of this document along with a sample administrative percent calculation). In addition, Education Law 2022 requires district residents to receive a budget notice which includes the contingency budget amount and a statement of assumptions regarding the calculation of such amount.

    What is the contingency budget cap for 2011-2012?
    1.92%

    If the budget originally proposed to the voters is less than the contingency budget cap, how is a contingency budget then calculated?
    Cuts would not have to be made to reach the contingency budget cap but would have to be made to meet the definition of contingency appropriations. The proposed budget includes all contingency and necessary expenses to operate the school district (see J. Stevens memo at: Annual School District Budget). When the proposed budget is below the contingency budget cap, the contingency budget is calculated by removing all non-contingency appropriations from the proposed budget. Items which are statutorily considered non-contingency expenses are, for example, student supplies, community use of buildings and grounds, certain equipment purchases and certain salary increases. Therefore, the contingency budget adopted by the Board of Education would always be less than the proposed budget. In this situation, the “Contingency Budget” column of the budget notice mailed to all residents must reflect these reductions.

    What does a district do if they incur an unanticipated, ordinary contingency expense, not budgeted for, while on a contingency budget?
    A district may increase its contingency budget up to the cap amount for an unanticipated, ordinary contingency expense that it might encounter during the year. An example would be a high-cost student with special needs who moves into the district after the school year has started and was not anticipated. If a district is already at its contingency budget cap, there is no authority to exceed that cap amount. Therefore, budgetary adjustments would have to be made within the budgetary constraints.

    What is the appropriate practice for calculating costs associated with an increase in enrollment?
    In calculating exclusions to the budget cap, districts should use cost-based approaches rather than formula-driven approaches to calculate an expense for enrollment growth. Just because a district projects a two percent growth in enrollment does not mean they will necessarily have a two percent increase in expenditures. Districts should examine and calculate specific costs associated with the projected enrollment increase, i.e. new teaching staff, textbooks, etc.

    Where can I learn more about the budgeting process?
    Questions about district-specific budgeting issues should be addressed to your local school district. General information and more detailed analysis of the budgeting process may be found at our website - http://www.p12.nysed.gov/mgtserv/budgeting/.

    Legislation enacted for 2007-2008 provides that for districts receiving increased Foundation Aid in 2007-2008, such increase is to be considered a Grant-in-aid. Grants-in-aid are excluded from the calculation of the contingency budget cap, thus allowing the district to spend the increased Foundation Aid without it being subject to the cap.

    APPENDIX I
    SAMPLE CONTINGENT BUDGET CAP WORKSHEET Title of Column Here Title of Column Here
    2010-11 Adopted Budget Less: (Base Year Exclusions) $1,000,000
    Budgeted expenditures of gifts, grants in aid or insurance proceeds 50,000
    Budgeted expenditures resulting from a tax certiorari proceeding 10,000
    Budgeted expenditures resulting from a court order or judgment against the district 5,000
    Budgeted expenditures certified by the Commissioner as necessary as a result
    of damage to, or destruction of, a school building or school equipment 20,000
    Budgeted capital expenditures resulting from construction, acquisition,
    reconstruction, rehabilitation or improvement of school facilities, including
    debt service and lease expenditures, subject to the approval of the qualified voters where required by law 150,000
    Non-recurring expense(s) 30,000
    Payments to Charter Schools
    Self-Supporting Privately Funded Programs 5,000
    Adjusted Base Year Adopted Budget 2009-10 Contingency Budget $730,000
    2010-11 Adjusted base year X CPI (1.92%) * $744,016
    ADD: (Subsequent Year Exclusions)
    Budgeted expenditures of gifts, grants in aid or insurance proceeds (*See Note at End) 25,000
    Budgeted expenditures resulting from a tax certiorari proceeding 40,000
    Budgeted expenditures resulting from a court order or judgment against the district 30,000
    Budgeted expenditures certified by the Commissioner as necessary as a result of damage to, or destruction of, a school building or school equipment 50,000
    Budgeted capital expenditures resulting from construction, acquisition, reconstruction, rehabilitation or improvement of school facilities, including debt service and lease expenditures, subject to the approval of the qualified voters where required by law 140,000
    Budgeted expenditures attributable to projected increases in public school enrollment 125,000
    Payments to Charter Schools
    Self-Supporting Privately Funded Programs 5,000
    Proposed Budget $1,350,000
    Contingent Budget $1,159,016
    Required Cuts ($190,984)

    Non-Contingent Items:

    •Student supplies
    •Community use of buildings and grounds
    •Certain equipment
    •Certain salary increases
    * Consumer Price Index (for purposes of preparing the school budget notice and calculating contingent budget cap for 2011-12 budgets)

    Chapter 436 of the Laws of 1997 establishes a limit of a contingent budget over the district budget for the prior year. After certain expenditure categories are excluded, the overall increase cannot exceed the lesser of four percent or 120% multiplied by the average of the national consumer price indexes determined by the U.S. Department of Labor for the 12 month period preceding January first of the current year. That average for calendar year 2010 is 1.6%.

    NOTE: LEGISLATIVE CHANGES FOR 2007-2008 INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING THAT AFFECT THE CALCULATION OF THE CONTINGENCY BUDGET CAP –

    § 22. Subdivision 4 of section 2023 of the education law is amended by adding a new paragraph b-1 to read as follows:

    1.Notwithstanding any other provision of this subdivision to the contrary, in the event a state grant in aid provided to the district in
    the prior year is eliminated and incorporated into a non-categorical general state aid in the current school year, the amount of such grant may be included in the computation of total spending for the prior school year, provided that the commissioner has verified that the grant in aid has been incorporate into such non-categorical general state aid.
    § 13. Subdivisions 2, 2-a and 2-b of section 3602 of the education law, as added by chapter 57 of the laws of 1993, paragraph c of subdivision 2 and paragraph c of subdivision 2-a as amended by chapter 532 of the laws of 1997, are amended and four new subdivisions 3, 4, 5 and 5-a are added to read as follows:

    1.Notwithstanding any other provision of law to the contrary, for the two thousand seven--two thousand eight through two thousand ten--two thousand eleven school years, the additional amount payable to each school district pursuant to this subdivision in the current year as total foundation aid, after deducting the total foundation aid base, shall be deemed a state grant in aid identified by the commissioner for general use for purposes of sections seventeen hundred eighteen and two thousand twenty-three of this chapter.
    For the 2008-09 through 2010-11 school years:

    1.The foundation aid increase the district received in the base year is treated as part of the base budget and included in the base year adopted budget amount (line 5); and
    2.The foundation aid increase the district is projected to receive for the current school year is treated as a grant in aid and budgeted in addition to the current year contingency budget (line 27).
    APPENDIX II
    SAMPLE ADMINISTRATIVE CAP CALCULATION 2010-11 Adopted Budget 2011-12 Proposed Budget
    Administrative Component $100,000 $125,000
    Program Component $700,000 $1,000,000
    Capital Component $200,000 $225,000

    Administrative % for 2010-11 Adopted Budget =

    2010-11 Administrative Component/
    (2010-11 Administrative Component + 2010-11 Program Component) =

    $100,000/($100,000 + $700,000) = 12.50%


    Administrative % for 2011-12 Proposed Budget =

    2011-12 Administrative Component (Proposed)/
    2011-12 Admin. Component (Proposed) + 2011-12 Program Component (Proposed) =

    $125,000/($125,000 + $1,000,000) = 11.11%


    If, in this example, the proposed budget was defeated and the district decided to immediately adopt a contingent budget, then the administrative component of that contingent budget could not be greater than 11.11%. If, as allowed by law, the district did hold a budget revote and the budget proposed again was defeated, then the administrative cap of the contingent budget could not be greater than the lesser of the 2008-09 adopted budget administrative cap or the administrative cap of the budget that was proposed in the revote.

    APPENDIX III
    CONVERSION OF THE BUDGET TO THREE COMPONENTS FUNCTION OR ACCOUNT SBM CODE TOTAL ADMIN. PROGRAM CAPITAL
    Board of Education 1099.0 X
    Central Admin 1299.0 X
    Finance 1399.0 X
    Legal Services 1420.0 X X
    Personnel 1430.0 X
    Records Mgmt. 1460.0 X
    Public Information 1480.0 X
    Operation Of Plant 1620.0 X
    Maint. Of Plant 1621.0 X
    Other Central Serv. 1699.0 X
    Judgments & Claims 1930.4 X
    Refund of Taxes 1964.4 X
    Other Spec. Items 1998.0 X
    Curr. Dev. & Sup. 2010.0 X
    Supervision Reg. Schl. 2020.0 X
    Supervision Spec. Schl. 2040.0 X
    Res. Eval. & Plan. 2060.0 X
    FUNCTION OR ACCOUNT SBM CODE TOTAL ADMIN. PROGRAM CAPITAL
    Instruction (Net of supervision) 2999.0 X
    Purchase of Buses 5510.21 X
    Other Dist. Trans. 5510.0 X
    Garage Bldg. 5530.0 X
    Contract Trans. 5540.0 X
    Community Service 8998.0 X
    Employee Benefits 9098.0 X X X
    Debt Service 9898.0 X
    Trans. to Capital 9950.9 X
    Trans. To Debt 9901.96 X
    Other Transfers 9951.0 X

    LEGAL REFERENCES
    (This list includes only select sections of Education Law and Commissioner’s Regulations.)

    Education Law 1608, 1716, 2601-a – Presenting budget to voters; 3-part budget

    Education Law 1718 – District may not exceed authorized appropriations

    Education Law 2022 – Date of vote; Budget notice sent to residents

    Education Law 2023 – Contingency budget requirements

    Commissioner’s Regulations 170.8 – 3-part budget requirements

    Legislation enacted for 2007-2008 provides that for districts receiving increased Foundation Aid in 2007-2008, such increase is to be considered a Grant-in-aid. Grants-in-aid are excluded from the calculation of the contingent budget cap, thus allowing the district to spend the increased Foundation Aid without it being subject to the cap.
    Last Updated: January 27, 2011 Contact | Research & Policy
    University of the State of New York - New York State Education Department
    Contact NYSED | Index A - Z | Terms of Use
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by literal View Post
    Hmmmmm.....

    When I lived there (a year ago) I always got a copy (usually a one page mailing) of the proposed budget vs. a contingency budget. Always mailed to registered voter/taxpayer.

    That information is prepared by Sam Masry, the Business Administrator. Every district has a budget presentation open to the public. The actual budget is as long as a book and available to any/all taxpayers who request it.
    Ohhhh, that little "newsletter"....I got that.....not much information about the budget in it though IMO.

  14. #44
    Member dtwarren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by literal View Post
    Like I said...a contingency budget does not permit any new hires. The Board does not like this because they like to give people jobs. A contingency budget ties their hands from hiring new employees.
    This is incorrect, they can hire new employees. Under Education Law § 2023 a board of education of a central school district has the right to determine the number of teachers needed, depending upon the number of students, courses involved and the facilities available. 1 Ops Counsel Educ Dep't #39 (1951).

    Because "teacher" is defined in Educ L § 3101 to include professional administrators, school board, whose budget had not been approved by the voters, could still provide pay raises to instructional administrators and supervisors under provision of Educ L § 2023, which permits levying of tax for teachers' salaries, notwithstanding defeat of the budget. Re Reinhardt, Op Comr Ed #9466.

    Because teachers' assistants are defined by regulation to be teachers, their salaries may be increased notwithstanding defeat of the budget. Re Reinhardt, Op Comr Ed #9466.
    “We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate.” ― Thomas Jefferson

  15. #45
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    Exclamation To show you how shady the current Board President is:

    The board appealed to the State Education Commish to allow them to have one voting location for the upcoming June budget election. They were rebuffed. Kudos to the State Commish for not buying their BS! Talk about trying to screw the taxpayers with that crap. Wonder how long it'll take before they start backstabbing and tearing each other up over jobs if this thing fails again???

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