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Thread: Let's see what happens this time - gun control

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    Let's see what happens this time - gun control


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    Member mikenold's Avatar
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    And what was that about gun control stopping crime? It seems that just the opposite happens to be true!!!


    But Armageddon never arrived. Quite the contrary, murders in Washington plummeted by an astounding 25 percent in 2009, dropping from 186 murders in 2008 to 140. That translates to a murder rate that is now down to 23.5 per 100,000 people, Washinton’s lowest since 1967. While other cities have also fared well over the last year, D.C.'s drop was several times greater than that for other similar sized cities. According to preliminary estimates by the FBI, nationwide murders fell by a relatively more modest 10 percent last year and by about 8 percent in other similarly sized cities of half a million to one million people (D.C.'s population count is at about 590,000).

    This shouldn't be surprising to anyone who has followed how crime rates change after gun bans have been imposed. Around the world, whenever guns are banned, murder rates rise. Washington’s murder rate soared after its handgun ban went into effect in early 1977 (there is only one year while the ban was in effect that the murder rate fell below the1976 number and that happened many years later -- in 1985). Its murder rate also rose relative to other cities. Washington’s murder rate rose from 12 percent above the average for the 50 most populous cities in 1976 to 35 percent above the average in 1986.

    Violent crime rate are directly related to whether or not guns are allowed or banned, who can dispute this at all?
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    Member NBuffaloResident's Avatar
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    I wonder when the "State's Rights" people are going to be up in arms about the Fed trying to creep in on the right's of states and local governments to administer their own affairs
    Raptor Jesus: He went extinct for your sins.

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    Member nogods's Avatar
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    I believe every law abiding citizen should have the right to own a firearm for personal protection.

    However, the DC statistics don't support the argument that less gun control leads to fewer murders. The report and its stats do not show a cause and effect relationship.

    First, the Heller decision was handed down in late June of 2008, and the revision to the DC gun control laws din't take place until December of 2008.

    But there were no reports of law abiding citizens repelling potential murders with newly acquired firearms during 2009 in DC. The only other possibility is that criminals suddenly concluded not to commit murders during 2009 because "law abiding citizens might have guns." Not likely, given that criminals rob banks with armed guards, shoot armed police officers in restaurants, and generally pay no attention to the risks involved with their criminal behavior. If they thought a law abiding citizen had a gun they'd just see it as an opportunity to steal the gun.

    Of course, this could happen instead:


    William Schater on gun control

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    Member mikenold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    I believe every law abiding citizen should have the right to own a firearm for personal protection.

    However, the DC statistics don't support the argument that less gun control leads to fewer murders. The report and its stats do not show a cause and effect relationship.

    First, the Heller decision was handed down in late June of 2008, and the revision to the DC gun control laws din't take place until December of 2008.

    But there were no reports of law abiding citizens repelling potential murders with newly acquired firearms during 2009 in DC. The only other possibility is that criminals suddenly concluded not to commit murders during 2009 because "law abiding citizens might have guns." Not likely, given that criminals rob banks with armed guards, shoot armed police officers in restaurants, and generally pay no attention to the risks involved with their criminal behavior. If they thought a law abiding citizen had a gun they'd just see it as an opportunity to steal the gun.

    Of course, this could happen instead:


    William Schater on gun control
    Criminals rob banks with guns because their is an incentive to risk your life (much money). This is not the case when it comes to breaking in to a private residence where there is no guarantee of enough reward worth the risk. Criminals always go for the least risk and most gain.
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    Member nogods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikenold View Post
    Criminals rob banks with guns because their is an incentive to risk your life (much money). This is not the case when it comes to breaking in to a private residence where there is no guarantee of enough reward worth the risk. Criminals always go for the least risk and most gain.
    By the same logic, a burglar is not interested in murdering anyone, he justs wants some valuable stuff and to get the hell out without being caught. He will choose a house where it appears no one is home, further reducing the risks of an encounter.

    If he thinks someone is home and is armed, he'll skip that house. If he thinks no one is home and there are guns in the house, he'll break in to get the guns.

    But still, there are no reported instances of new gun owners under the revised DC law repelling potential murders during 2009. So there is still no cause and effect relationship shown.

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    Member run4it's Avatar
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    Add to that the fact that gun ownership in DC is still extremely low. I believe less than 500 permits have been issued since the ruling went into effect.
    But your being a dick
    ~Wnyresident

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    Member mikenold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by run4it View Post
    Add to that the fact that gun ownership in DC is still extremely low. I believe less than 500 permits have been issued since the ruling went into effect.
    Therefore just the idea that there are more guns deters violent crime. Kinda like the fake outdoor camera we used to have on a building on Sherman near Genessee.
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    Member nogods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikenold View Post
    Therefore just the idea that there are more guns deters violent crime. Kinda like the fake outdoor camera we used to have on a building on Sherman near Genessee.
    So why have real guns? Just put "proud member of the NRA" stickers on everyones house. no actual guns needed. Bad guy will see sticker and leave.

    From the early reports of the oral argument it sounds like the 2nd is going to get incorporated but with open ended restriction language like that used in the Heller opinion.

    So total bans will be unconstitutional. Will restrictions limiting possession to one's home be allowed? Will bans of firearms on public property be allowed? It is going to take a lot more cases to sort out the details.

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    Member mikenold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    So why have real guns? Just put "proud member of the NRA" stickers on everyones house. no actual guns needed. Bad guy will see sticker and leave.

    From the early reports of the oral argument it sounds like the 2nd is going to get incorporated but with open ended restriction language like that used in the Heller opinion.

    So total bans will be unconstitutional. Will restrictions limiting possession to one's home be allowed? Will bans of firearms on public property be allowed? It is going to take a lot more cases to sort out the details.
    The problem with your idea is that the criminals will know it is a sham too. When the criminal actual believes that the homeowner might have a gun he is reluctant to try to go in and steal.
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    Member run4it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikenold View Post
    The problem with your idea is that the criminals will know it is a sham too. When the criminal actual believes that the homeowner might have a gun he is reluctant to try to go in and steal.
    The criminals know it's a sham anyway. Like I said, less than 500 permits in DC. That's less than 1 gun for every 1,000 households (actually it's more like 1 gun for every 1,500 households), and probably the number of gun owners hasn't increased at all, but rather the number of LEGAL gun owners. And if you think that both the residents and criminals of DC don't know that nothing has really changed.....well, let's just say not everyone is as ignorant as you.

    Point being, Mike, the Heller case had nothing to do with crime going up, down, or sideways in DC. The crime rate was down before and after the ruling.
    But your being a dick
    ~Wnyresident

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    Gun laws work

    The less weapons the less fatalities.
    I live on the lower west side and have no use for a gun.
    I don't lock my door.
    I'm safe.

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    Member mikenold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by run4it View Post
    The criminals know it's a sham anyway. Like I said, less than 500 permits in DC. That's less than 1 gun for every 1,000 households (actually it's more like 1 gun for every 1,500 households), and probably the number of gun owners hasn't increased at all, but rather the number of LEGAL gun owners. And if you think that both the residents and criminals of DC don't know that nothing has really changed.....well, let's just say not everyone is as ignorant as you.

    Point being, Mike, the Heller case had nothing to do with crime going up, down, or sideways in DC. The crime rate was down before and after the ruling.
    Posted a second time for those that did not read it the first time:

    Quite the contrary, murders in Washington plummeted by an astounding 25 percent in 2009, dropping from 186 murders in 2008 to 140.
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    Member mikenold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevenco View Post
    The less weapons the less fatalities.
    I live on the lower west side and have no use for a gun.
    I don't lock my door.
    I'm safe.
    I wander the east side with a wad of hundreds fanning my face!


    I am now dead!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikenold View Post
    I wander the east side with a wad of hundreds fanning my face!


    I am now dead!
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