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Thread: One Seneca Tower buyer sees ‘ton of potential’

  1. #1
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    One Seneca Tower buyer sees ‘ton of potential’

    So the BS...I mean BN has a post up with some quotes from the new owner. Out of everything this stood out to me:

    His plans for the building are still evolving. But he reiterated his “back-of-the-envelope” projections. “I see one-third residential, one-third hotel and one-third office, and I see a good part of it retail in this courtyard,” he said. “It’s got a tremendous amount of opportunity.”



    The current placement of the tower leaves a lot to be desired for many. It's a ton of open space with public art but it does not really act like a public space. Mostly because the liability of the Metro cutting through. If the metro was not above ground I would bet that the courtyard space is where they would have located concerts and such.

    Next, when you consider 3 separate uses you're likely looking at needing 3 different lobbies. Lastly, this company has experience in mid-rise development. From all of this, here is what I think is going to happen....

    I think he builds out mid-rise space over the courtyards. Especially along the courtyard that fronts Washington. I could also see him extending the courtyard on the other side fronting Pearl.

    One of the mid-rise buildings would service the hotel. It would include a porte-cochère for drop off and pickup, a large lobby and then ballroom/meeting space. The other mid-rise will include retail on the ground floor, a new lobby for the office and for the residences. The floors above would be large office floor plates that are not found in typical office towers downtown.

    As for the tower itself, that's cut into 3. The first 1/3 is for office space. This would allow the ability to pitch a company for both large floor plates for operations and smaller floor plates for executives that would be connected. The second 1/3 would be hotel rooms. The layout of the building suites this pretty well I assume. The third 1/3 would be of course residential condos. Offering the best views in the city.

    I also think that the restaurant on the top floor is in the plan. It just makes sense to have such an option for such a building.


    Sadly I don't think the exterior of the building is skinned. This is sad because it could really change the look of the building but the Buffalo market just does not justify the cost right now. I do wonder how they would blend new construction with the old construction.

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    One thing that I hope for is that IF this project happens and IF Croce is able to get the Statler renovated that both of these projects will eventually lead to the closure of the Adams Mark.


    Then, if we're still dreaming, the Skyway is torn down. This would in turn allow the onramp that cuts in front of the Adams Mark to be demolished.

    From here they find a way to rebuild Erie St all the way to the Erie Basin Marina. This would allow those crappy office buildings and parking lots to be demolished. You could then develop a low rise but high density village all the way from Erie Basis to City Hall.

    Then lastly, and I know I am really dreaming here, is the Marine Drive towers are demolished. They are replaced with an extension of the mid-rise village at the basin all the way to CanalSide.

    This would then leave Buffalo with a dense urban village that goes from the Erie Basin Marina all the way down to a new downtown stadium along the inner harbor.

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    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    regarding reskinning the exterior - I agree that it's probably not realistic and also most likely unnecessary for turning the building around. If the inside is completely modernized, the dated exterior really doesn't matter. But even more, if he uses historic tax credits then reskinning or changing the look of the exterior in any significant way would not be an option. I'm sure he will go for any tax credit he can get. I think all the exterior really needs is a cleaning, some cool lighting (including some effect for a crown), better signage.

    You mentioned the metro being an issue - during one of the previous discussions people mentioned the possibility of moving the Seneca St stop, which is just across the street, to the underside of the tower. If they were to open up that dead concrete tunnel wall and turn it into a modern metro stop with exits leading to the new retail around the plaza it could really make it more of a destination. This would all need to be designed along with the car traffic underneath though too, so it might be more complicated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles View Post
    regarding reskinning the exterior - I agree that it's probably not realistic and also most likely unnecessary for turning the building around. If the inside is completely modernized, the dated exterior really doesn't matter. But even more, if he uses historic tax credits then reskinning or changing the look of the exterior in any significant way would not be an option. I'm sure he will go for any tax credit he can get. I think all the exterior really needs is a cleaning, some cool lighting (including some effect for a crown), better signage.

    You mentioned the metro being an issue - during one of the previous discussions people mentioned the possibility of moving the Seneca St stop, which is just across the street, to the underside of the tower. If they were to open up that dead concrete tunnel wall and turn it into a modern metro stop with exits leading to the new retail around the plaza it could really make it more of a destination. This would all need to be designed along with the car traffic underneath though too, so it might be more complicated.
    Good point on the historic tax credits. Wonder if they would allow the building to be painted and the colors of the windows changed? White with blue/clear windows could look cool I think. But agree this does not need to be the focus.

    Not sure I follow on the Metro. I was saying I feel the issue is running the tracks between the two open spaces. As long as trains run through that area you can't block it off.

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    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    One thing that I hope for is that IF this project happens and IF Croce is able to get the Statler renovated that both of these projects will eventually lead to the closure of the Adams Mark.
    Why? What about the people who invested their money into business?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    Why? What about the people who invested their money into business?
    Business is not charity.

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    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Adams is being subsidized? I assumed they were paying property taxes and hiring employees who end up paying income tax etc.. As a hotel I also thought they would contribute a bed tax I think it's called.

    Business is not charity.
    Charity would be like Mark being handed money to fix his building.

    Public funds set to kick in for Croce’s Statler work

    Pledged city reimbursement of $5.3 million being sought
    http://www.buffalonews.com/business/...-work-20150714

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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    Adams is being subsidized? I assumed they were paying property taxes and hiring employees who end up paying income tax etc.. As a hotel I also thought they would contribute a bed tax I think it's called.

    Charity would be like Mark being handed money to fix his building.

    http://www.buffalonews.com/business/...-work-20150714

    Good points. I was speaking more from a consumer perspective than a tax payer.

    I can also see where you would have issue with Croce getting money for his building. But the alternative was having the taxpayers eventually pick up the tab for demo. It's not like the building had a line around the corner of capable developers. The history of the building, it's presence in downtown, is what makes it different for me.

    At the end of the day a hotel like The Statler is needed in cities. Not what's today but what will, I hope, eventually be developed. When you go after some events like higher level NCAA tournaments or conferences they have a laundry list of requirements. The bigger the event the more things you need and 'grand' hotels are one of them.

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    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    I sort of understand the charity to Mark. That building is history where as the HSBC tower not so much. Do you think it's historic?


    Did you catch this in the news

    $90.5 million Trico redevelopment project gets $3.6 million in tax breaks

    he $90.5 million conversion of the former Trico Products Corp. windshield wiper plant into a complex with a hotel, cooking school and apartments cleared one of its final hurdles on Wednesday when the Erie County Industrial Development Agency approved $3.6 million in tax breaks for the long-awaited project.

    The project by Buffalo developer Krog Corp. would transform a hulking industrial structure in a highly visible location near the Kensington Expressway into a commercial and residential hub.

    Preliminary work, mostly involving environmental cleanup and abatement, is expected to begin in September, with the hotel, school and commercial space scheduled to be finished by August 2018, said Peter Krog, the Orchard Park developer who has pursued the project for nearly four years.


    I hope they fill these buildings up.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    I sort of understand the charity to Mark. That building is history where as the HSBC tower not so much. Do you think it's historic?

    I personally don't think the tower is historic. I do think it has great importance and should get money. It's the centerpiece of downtown. Having it abandoned is like having your neighbor have their car up on blocks with the engine out while you're trying to have an open house to sell your home.


    I am also a huge fan of tax credits. I think they should be everywhere from the tower to a single family home. My view is that if you can give someone a tax credit that in turn leads to a higher amount of taxes collected then you do it. The offset for the owner for paying higher taxes is having a higher property value. If you don't want a higher property value that leads to not having higher taxes...you don't apply for a tax credit. Pretty simple.

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    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Do you expect money to be taken from other neighbors to clean up the neighbor's yard with the car on blocks?

    The offset for the owner for paying higher taxes is having a higher property value. If you don't want a higher property value that leads to not having higher taxes...you don't apply for a tax credit. Pretty simple.
    What is the value of higher property value other than paying more to live in your home? I dont' see that as a value. I just see it as a higher cost of living that follows you until you pass away. I'm planning to stay in my house until I pass away. Like my grand parents did and other people I have known over the years. You do understand you can't take that "higher value" with you to the grave. Right?

    I'm ok with tax breaks because I see how tax money is foolishly spent in some cases. There is no reason for property owners to support some of the nonsense we get stuck with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    Do you expect money to be taken from other neighbors to clean up the neighbor's yard with the car on blocks?
    Interesting question.

    Money is not being taken. Money is given to government to spend for the greater good. If you don't like how much money is being taken or what it's being spent on...you either move to an area you're in line with or vote out who is spending.

    As for the car on blocks...I don't see why you would have an issue with some form of a tax credit program to move the process along. What we're not discussing is how much of a tax credit someone would get for something like having a car on blocks in the front yard.

    As yourself this, say it was actually your neighbor and they simply did not have the money to move the car. Would you really be opposed to giving them a tax break (not cash but a break on what they pay) in order for them to get the car moved to an appropriate location? Think about the actual cost of that and then think about the return on that cost. Both from your personal view and from the view of a potential buyer looking to purchase your home.

    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    What is the value of higher property value other than paying more to live in your home?
    Home equity. I know that's not someone people in Cheektowaga talk about much but it's something of great value.

    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    I'm ok with tax breaks because I see how tax money is foolishly spent in some cases. There is no reason for property owners to support some of the nonsense we get stuck with.
    Vote or move.

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    Leftie, I guess you and I Will never agree on this "greater good" thing. To me government spending on public works like sewers, streets, public safety and so on is for the greater good. Money given to Mark Croce or Elon Musk is for the good of Mark Croce or Elon Musk. I understand your concern that the public will have to demolish the (Statler, One Empty Tower or whatever). But no one put a gun to these guys heads to buy these relics ; they took the risk and should be responsible for demolition if they can't make a go of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grump View Post
    Leftie, I guess you and I Will never agree on this "greater good" thing. To me government spending on public works like sewers, streets, public safety and so on is for the greater good. Money given to Mark Croce or Elon Musk is for the good of Mark Croce or Elon Musk. I understand your concern that the public will have to demolish the (Statler, One Empty Tower or whatever). But no one put a gun to these guys heads to buy these relics ; they took the risk and should be responsible for demolition if they can't make a go of it.

    That's understandable. It's why your generation was the worst in the history of the United States.

    We had an opportunity to have a government like you wanted but you folks feel asleep at the wheel and ran off the road. Now people are trying to fix that.

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    How about this; we be allowed to contribute on a voluntary basis to these things. We can each decide whether to give our money to Croce and Musk and so on or we can contribute to genuine public works, eg highways, sewers etc. Those who contribute can use those who don't can't. If I don't contribute to Croce I can't go into the Statler and if I don't contribute to Musk I can't buy his idiot solar panels or can't buy his cars. (Small loss since he can't produce them in a timely manner anyway.) if you don't contribute to the highways and sewers you can walk through fields and crap on your lawn. Ok?

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