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Thread: NFL on new stadium for the Bills

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles View Post
    I never said he wouldn't. It's all about IF he wouldn't. It's his team. He should only push for a stadium if he wants it. Secondly, if WNY wants it (since we'll be paying for part of it). My point isn't that Pegula won't push for a new stadium, it's that it's his decision first, not the NFL's.
    The Bills are his team but his team is in a league of other owners. I don't think Pegula has as much independence as you suggest.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles View Post
    You haven't listed anything that shows the Bills breaking any league rules. The league setup the revenue sharing. Just because the Bills are making out nicely doesn't mean they can force them to stop without changing the rules again. So what the NFL doesn't like it. They shouldn't have setup the rules that way then.
    You don't get it.

    When the commissioner says "But ultimately the stadium has to make sure it can attract both of those elements and then generate the revenue that’s necessary to be competitive in the league" that is the league saying the Bills need to produce more money for the revenue sharing program.

    The league is 32 ownership groups. In order to become an owner you have to be approved by this group. Do you honestly think that before Pegula became an owner they did not ask...hey Terry, what are you going to do about the revenue issues with the team? Seriously? You can't be that naive to think otherwise.

    Do you honestly think these Billionaires are just going to sit back and keep cutting checks to Pegula when they have put their own money on the line (with public money as well) to produce higher revenue? Do you honestly think they are just going to allow an owner to say 'so what...what are YOU going to do about it"....that's pretty funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles View Post
    As for politics - yes there could be political fallout if the NFL strong-armed the Pegulas into relocating the team, or forcing them to build a stadium that nobody wants or needs. If they were to start pissing off Schumer and Cuomo, things could get ugly for them and it would go far beyond NYS.
    There is nothing of substance to suggest the NFL would need to strong-arm the Pegulas. Every bit of logic would suggest the Pegulas are on the same page with the NFL and agreed to go for a new stadium BEFORE they were approved for ownership. Any thinking otherwise is just naive fans or WNY taxpayers.

    As for political fallout, like I said, they are not going to need to strong arm Schumer or Cuomo. They won't want to either. For NYS, the costs to build a new stadium are not viewed in the same spectrum as WNY. This is why I said anyone with real power. Both Cuomo and Schumer have said when the time is right they will talk about a new stadium. Both of them know that the return for NYS is greater than the investment from NYS to keep the Bills.

    To start, the Bills produce $12m in employment taxes each year just off the players. Then you have to factor in all of the other employment taxes. From there you count a 4% tax on tickets. With the gates at $50M right now, that's an additional $2m a year. Then you have all of the taxes produced by Bills related stuff. The key here is understanding that for NYS, the formula for a return on investment is different than Erie County or Buffalo. Beyond this, when you consider how much NYC would need to invest compared to the political fallout for costing the Bills to leave...it's an easy check to write.

    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles View Post
    Mock it all you want but the NFL halo is wearing thin in congress with monopoly issues, network blackout rules, and player concussions.
    I am mocking the idea that it would go that far. Because it won't. The hand has already been dealt and it's just a matter of time before the cards are played. The NFL does not need Buffalo. You seem to think that 'Buffalo' can just say NO and the NFL would have no choice but to say OK. It does not work like that.

    Beyond seeing nothing to support the claim that Pegula does not want a new stadium....eventually. Beyond signs that Pegula is continuing to lay the groundwork for a Pegulaville near his hockey team and hotel. The fact is, as much as I like what Terry is doing for Buffalo...he is not a charity. He is a businessman first.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    You seem to think that 'Buffalo' can just say NO and the NFL would have no choice but to say OK. It does not work like that.
    That's not just what I think. It's what's been going on for years. The NFL has been pushing for a new stadium in Buffalo for the past decade. We don't have one. The Bills said No. Instead they shoveled $100 million into rehabbing the old one. It's been several years since then and there are still no firm plans to build a new stadium. You keep saying the Bills don't have the ability to say No, yet that's exactly what they've been doing. Maybe eventually they will build a new stadium, but it's happening on the Bills' schedule, not on the NFL's schedule.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles View Post
    That's not just what I think. It's what's been going on for years. The NFL has been pushing for a new stadium in Buffalo for the past decade. We don't have one. The Bills said No. Instead they shoveled $100 million into rehabbing the old one. It's been several years since then and there are still no firm plans to build a new stadium. You keep saying the Bills don't have the ability to say No, yet that's exactly what they've been doing. Maybe eventually they will build a new stadium, but it's happening on the Bills' schedule, not on the NFL's schedule.
    There is a huge difference between the Bills owned by Wilson and the Bills owned by Pegula. So much so there is no comparison. What you don't want to accept is that Pegula needed to be approved by NFL owners in order to purchase the team. As you mention, the NFL (other owners sending revenue share money to Buffalo) have wanted a new stadium. To even suggest that this would not be one of the top items for approval is silly.

    The upgrades and lease extension were done while Wilson still owned the team and Pegula inherited those terms and the project just completed. It would be crazy to think Pegula would talk about a new stadium just after they opened the renovations. But the $400M penalty goes away in 2020 and the lease expires by 2022. It would be foolish to think that a new stadium is not under construction by 2020 and the Bills playing their first game in 2023.

    It's not maybe. It's eventually. And if you don't think the Bills schedule is already aligned and 'approved' by the NFL...I have a bridge to sell you.

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    .

    The Bills better get going a new stadium ASAP, atleast name a location, have a design and how they are going to pay for it ? Las Vegas is going for speed ahead on building a new NFL Stadium for the Raiders or another NFL team http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bi...iders-stadium/ Minneapolis show's off there new stadium this year, Atlanta's new stadium open's next year. Followed by Los Angeles's new palace. and are looking for 2nd team to share with the Rams. San Diego's vote's on new Stadium in November,
    San Antonio/Austin & Oklahoma City have the interest & market to support a NFL team. Even in Phoenix they are already talking about building another new Football stadium within 5 to 10 years, but first they have to build a new Baseball stadium for the Diamond Backs, a new Hockey arena for Coyotes and separate new arena for the Suns because they can't work together. Now a days, Stadiums & Arena's have a life span of 20 to 30 years before they become obsolete
    Last edited by jennifer7; June 28th, 2016 at 11:39 AM. Reason: .

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    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles View Post
    The NBA isn't the NFL.

    Question for you: has the NFL ever forced an owner to sell, or forced an owner to build a new stadium?
    You talk real tough now that team is owned by the Pegulas. If Wilson still owned the team you'd be fouling your Depends on a daily basis over a possible move. The owners can change the game any time they feel like it, it's their league. And the Pegulas aren't the only rich people there. All the owners are rich and they don't have to have a team in Buffalo to get richer. The league can put the squeeze on the Bills in dozens of ways you and I can't even guess about. Look at how the NHL screwed the Sabes over in their travel schedule this year because they tanked last year. They never did that to Pittsburg even though they obviously tanked twice, once for Mario Lemeiux and again for Cindy Crosby. See if they do the same to the Leafs next year for obviously tanking this year. Don't assume the league can't force action. But I forgot, you think that since its Buffalo its impervious. You too young to remember the Buffalo Braves? Buffalo may need the NFL to have a pro football team but the NFL doesn't need Buffalo to have a pro football league.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by grump View Post
    You talk real tough now that team is owned by the Pegulas. If Wilson still owned the team you'd be fouling your Depends on a daily basis over a possible move. The owners can change the game any time they feel like it, it's their league. And the Pegulas aren't the only rich people there. All the owners are rich and they don't have to have a team in Buffalo to get richer. The league can put the squeeze on the Bills in dozens of ways you and I can't even guess about. Look at how the NHL screwed the Sabes over in their travel schedule this year because they tanked last year. They never did that to Pittsburg even though they obviously tanked twice, once for Mario Lemeiux and again for Cindy Crosby. See if they do the same to the Leafs next year for obviously tanking this year. Don't assume the league can't force action. But I forgot, you think that since its Buffalo its impervious. You too young to remember the Buffalo Braves? Buffalo may need the NFL to have a pro football team but the NFL doesn't need Buffalo to have a pro football league.
    Damn grump. You dropped the hammer.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by grump View Post
    You talk real tough now that team is owned by the Pegulas. If Wilson still owned the team you'd be fouling your Depends on a daily basis over a possible move. The owners can change the game any time they feel like it, it's their league. And the Pegulas aren't the only rich people there. All the owners are rich and they don't have to have a team in Buffalo to get richer. The league can put the squeeze on the Bills in dozens of ways you and I can't even guess about. Look at how the NHL screwed the Sabes over in their travel schedule this year because they tanked last year. They never did that to Pittsburg even though they obviously tanked twice, once for Mario Lemeiux and again for Cindy Crosby. See if they do the same to the Leafs next year for obviously tanking this year. Don't assume the league can't force action. But I forgot, you think that since its Buffalo its impervious. You too young to remember the Buffalo Braves? Buffalo may need the NFL to have a pro football team but the NFL doesn't need Buffalo to have a pro football league.
    As usual you don't know WTF you're talking about. I personally don't give a flying **** whether the Bills stay in WNY or not. The benefits are way overrated. I'm fine with them staying in OP with their current stadium and I wouldn't have cared if they left town when Wilson died. I'd rather they stay in OP instead of Buffalo anyway because I don't have faith that a new stadium will be built in the right way to actually benefit the city. If it's only used 10 times per year then OP can keep it. The article in today's news backs up everything I've been saying: A new stadium will or won't happen on our own schedule ("our" meaning Pegulas, Buffalo, Erie County, and NYS) and not when the league dictates it.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennifer7 View Post
    The Bills better get going a new stadium ASAP, atleast name a location, have a design and how they are going to pay for it ? Las Vegas is going for speed ahead on building a new NFL Stadium for the Raiders or another NFL team http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bi...iders-stadium/ Minneapolis show's off there new stadium this year, Atlanta's new stadium open's next year. Followed by Los Angeles's new palace. and are looking for 2nd team to share with the Rams. San Diego's vote's on new Stadium in November,
    San Antonio/Austin & Oklahoma City have the interest & market to support a NFL team. Even in Phoenix they are already talking about building another new Football stadium within 5 to 10 years, but first they have to build a new Baseball stadium for the Diamond Backs, a new Hockey arena for Coyotes and separate new arena for the Suns because they can't work together. Now a days, Stadiums & Arena's have a life span of 20 to 30 years before they become obsolete
    Who are you again?
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    Grump is right. The NFL owner's will get what they want. Either you play with the big boys rules or they are going to penalize the Bills, they could give the Bills a lower salary cap so they can't compete, take draft picks away, fines for not conforming up to NFL Stadium standards. request compensation from the Bills to make up for the money being lost from not having the corporate suites etc.. Pegula and the NFL owners knows the Bills can't sell the hundreds & hundreds of corporate suites that go's with A new NFL stadium. 2019 out clause date is circled on Jerry Jones, Dan Snyder, Robert Kraft and all the other NFL owners calendar's. That's Why Pegula keeps answering we have time. Ralph Wilson famous quote" Enjoy your Bills while you have them"

  11. #26
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    Lambeau Field, Oakland-Alameda Coliseum, Qualcomm Stadium, Arrowhead Stadium - all older than the Ralph, None being "Targeted": by the NFL to be replaced.

    This whole argument is made up in your tiny little minds. The ONLY thing that comes up when you Google "NFL pushing for new stadium" is Buffalo and not ONE link is attached to the NFL because only in Buffalo are the "fans" creating such a uproar over something that doesn't exist.

    Goodell's actual remarks about the Ralph and the bills which people have twisted into meaning the NFL is forcing Buffalo to build a new stadium:

    "Well, I think that's one of the things Terry [Pegula]'s going through, trying to see what it takes to make sure the Bills remain here on a successful basis," Goodell said, per Matthew Fairburn of the Syracuse Post-Standard. "That's their objective, and I know that's their commitment. We fully support that.

    "Stadiums are important, just to making sure the team here can continue to compete not only throughout the NFL but also to compete in this environment because we've got great facilities here now. The Bills have to stay up with that."
    Let me articulate this for you:
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by HipKat View Post
    Lambeau Field, Oakland-Alameda Coliseum, Qualcomm Stadium, Arrowhead Stadium - all older than the Ralph, None being "Targeted": by the NFL to be replaced.
    Wha?

    Lambeau Field did a huge $300million renovation in 2001–03. Then another in $146 million endzone expansion in 2012–13. Then another $140.5 million renovation in 2013–15. About the only thing that's old at Lambeau is the address. That's $586M total.

    Arrowhead Stadium took a massive renovation of $350million back in 2007. By comparison, the stadium in Phoenix was built in 2006 for $455 million.

    If you don't think the Oakland and San Diego stadiums are being targeted by the NFL you really don't know anything about either of those situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by HipKat View Post
    This whole argument is made up in your tiny little minds. The ONLY thing that comes up when you Google "NFL pushing for new stadium" is Buffalo and not ONE link is attached to the NFL because only in Buffalo are the "fans" creating such a uproar over something that doesn't exist.

    Goodell's actual remarks about the Ralph and the bills which people have twisted into meaning the NFL is forcing Buffalo to build a new stadium:

    It's the tiny little mind that thinks:

    1) Byron Brown and Mark Poloncarz are going to out manuver Pegula, the NFL and NFL Owners
    2) The NFL is going to work this deal out in the public and have a crappy little newspaper like the Buffalo News have the insight and access
    3) The NFL needs Buffalo more than Buffalo wanting/needing the NFL

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post

    It's the tiny little mind that thinks:

    1) Byron Brown and Mark Poloncarz are going to out manuver Pegula, the NFL and NFL Owners
    2) The NFL is going to work this deal out in the public and have a crappy little newspaper like the Buffalo News have the insight and access

    3) The NFL needs Buffalo more than Buffalo wanting/needing the NFL
    These may the trues statements ever written but place Cleveland in thay last line instead of Buffalo, yet the NFL went far to ensure Cleveland got a team after Modell left town

    ..and the Ralph has had no renovations? Come on.... Even the NFl is smart enough to know Buffalo does not equal Boston, NY City, Nashville, Dallas, etc or do you think that a multi-billion dollar a year entity doesn't understand economic impacts on it's markets?

    Fact is Lefty, you've been blowing the new stadium trumpet louder than anyone on here for years or did you forget all those photoshopped maps of downtown you used to post, all colored and labelled with venue sites, parking, etc
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HipKat View Post
    These may the trues statements ever written but place Cleveland in thay last line instead of Buffalo, yet the NFL went far to ensure Cleveland got a team after Modell left town
    Have you ever been to FirstEnergy Stadium? It's the new waterfront stadium Cleveland needed to build in order to get the Browns back. Opened in 1999, the same year the Browns came back.

    The Browns/Model situation is very similar to the Charlotte Hornets/George Shinn situation. In both of those cases the city and it's residents did not like the owner but did love the team. In both cases they did not want to fund a stadium for the owner they didn't like. In both cases, just a few years after (4 for Cleveland and 2 for Charlotte) the city magically found the money to build brand new stadium/arena for the new ownership group.

    Pegula is much, much, much more highly regarded than Model/Shinn ever were or could be in Cleveland/Charlotte.

    Quote Originally Posted by HipKat View Post
    ..and the Ralph has had no renovations? Come on.... Even the NFl is smart enough to know Buffalo does not equal Boston, NY City, Nashville, Dallas, etc or do you think that a multi-billion dollar a year entity doesn't understand economic impacts on it's markets?
    The Ralph has had some renovations but nothing close to what other stadiums got. But I am not buying one bit the whole Buffalo does not equal other NFL cities. Of course it's not Boston, NYC or Dallas but for what the NFL/Pegula needs the Buffalo Market is not nearly as poor as many think. The 'Buffalo Bills' are not just a team for the city of Buffalo. The NFL has a much bigger gravitational pull than many think. That pull extends all the way to Hamilton and Rochester. Beyond that, the amount of money in WNY is much more than people think.

    To put it another way...a guy who builds a $4+ Billion empire does not pay $1.4B for a team with a fan base that exists purely of working class blokes.

    Quote Originally Posted by HipKat View Post
    Fact is Lefty, you've been blowing the new stadium trumpet louder than anyone on here for years or did you forget all those photoshopped maps of downtown you used to post, all colored and labelled with venue sites, parking, etc
    I didn't forget those maps. In fact I wish I could go back and find them. Would love to see how projects like the ones along the Buffalo river fit into what I thought 6 years ago. Would love to see how the grid filling out in the First ward/Cobblestone fit into what's happened recently. Would love to see how my idea for extending the light rail to South Buffalo fits with how they are extending the light rail to the cobblestone now and in sight of SolarCity. Would love to see how my ideas of highrise apartments fits into what is possibly going to happen at the freezer queen site and then with the old shipping terminal.

    I was called all sorts of names by people when I projected that a generation raised in the suburbs, if they stayed, would want to move to the downtown core. They would want to live in condos. I was called crazy when I said that the old people would want to sell their homes in Amherst and Clarence and move into apartments/condos inside of the city because they didn't have to worry about schools but wanted to stay in the community.

    Dare I say that based on not even living in the area, what I was dreaming about years ago is starting to come together. The reason? It's basic freaking common sense. In the absence of industry, which is a reality in Buffalo, you build up around the water. Replacing old ruins with new projects. In the absence of having massive population and job spikes, which is a reality in Buffalo, you build up around mass transportation to create transit oriented development. You create anchors that people can gravitate towards. Ever heard of Larkinville? Ever heard of the Medical Campus? You build large things that create outposts outside of the CBD and fill in the gaps.

    A new stadium, next to the casino and next to the river...along an extended light rail is pretty much exactly what I was talking about.

    Ya...I remember those maps. Do you?

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    Have you ever been to FirstEnergy Stadium? It's the new waterfront stadium Cleveland needed to build in order to get the Browns back. Opened in 1999, the same year the Browns came back.

    The Browns/Model situation is very similar to the Charlotte Hornets/George Shinn situation. In both of those cases the city and it's residents did not like the owner but did love the team. In both cases they did not want to fund a stadium for the owner they didn't like. In both cases, just a few years after (4 for Cleveland and 2 for Charlotte) the city magically found the money to build brand new stadium/arena for the new ownership group.

    Pegula is much, much, much more highly regarded than Model/Shinn ever were or could be in Cleveland/Charlotte.



    The Ralph has had some renovations but nothing close to what other stadiums got. But I am not buying one bit the whole Buffalo does not equal other NFL cities. Of course it's not Boston, NYC or Dallas but for what the NFL/Pegula needs the Buffalo Market is not nearly as poor as many think. The 'Buffalo Bills' are not just a team for the city of Buffalo. The NFL has a much bigger gravitational pull than many think. That pull extends all the way to Hamilton and Rochester. Beyond that, the amount of money in WNY is much more than people think.

    To put it another way...a guy who builds a $4+ Billion empire does not pay $1.4B for a team with a fan base that exists purely of working class blokes.



    I didn't forget those maps. In fact I wish I could go back and find them. Would love to see how projects like the ones along the Buffalo river fit into what I thought 6 years ago. Would love to see how the grid filling out in the First ward/Cobblestone fit into what's happened recently. Would love to see how my idea for extending the light rail to South Buffalo fits with how they are extending the light rail to the cobblestone now and in sight of SolarCity. Would love to see how my ideas of highrise apartments fits into what is possibly going to happen at the freezer queen site and then with the old shipping terminal.

    I was called all sorts of names by people when I projected that a generation raised in the suburbs, if they stayed, would want to move to the downtown core. They would want to live in condos. I was called crazy when I said that the old people would want to sell their homes in Amherst and Clarence and move into apartments/condos inside of the city because they didn't have to worry about schools but wanted to stay in the community.

    Dare I say that based on not even living in the area, what I was dreaming about years ago is starting to come together. The reason? It's basic freaking common sense. In the absence of industry, which is a reality in Buffalo, you build up around the water. Replacing old ruins with new projects. In the absence of having massive population and job spikes, which is a reality in Buffalo, you build up around mass transportation to create transit oriented development. You create anchors that people can gravitate towards. Ever heard of Larkinville? Ever heard of the Medical Campus? You build large things that create outposts outside of the CBD and fill in the gaps.

    A new stadium, next to the casino and next to the river...along an extended light rail is pretty much exactly what I was talking about.

    Ya...I remember those maps. Do you?
    Of course, I was one of the few people that was on your side. Before I moved here, I was highly ingrained in the city and downtown and was deeply interested in the development of the waterfront and the expansion of downtown living
    Let me articulate this for you:
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