"Democratic Socialist" an Oxymoron?

[CindyLocklear]

I am confused by this phrase. MikeWrona identifies himself on another thread as being one. Maybe my confusion lies in the fact that I am sort of black and white in my thinking when it comes to theories of global political science, but to me this idealogy sounds a lot like being "a little bit pregnant".

I am not a student of economics or geopolitics, but my rudimentary understanding of American democracy is that it fundamentally recognizes and protects personal liberty, private property, and freedom of choice and selection of governance. The Founding Fathers also recognized a Public Benefit in protecting the general health and welfare of the populace.

An alternative to democracy (including our representative democracy) is communism and its corollary of socialism. Again, my basic understanding is that these precepts are antithetical to the foundational tenets of democracy. Does not socialism subjugate the individual to the collective and strive toward the common control and ownership of the 'means of production'?

Are not Democratic Socialists really not striving toward a utopian ideal of plain old socialism, either through evolution or revolution? Isnt the cloak of Democracy, just a 'means to an end'?

I often wonder how many of today's unionites recognize the socialistic themes and rhetoric they have been indoctrinated with in the guise of 'empowering' them to achieve the materialistic American Dream of middle class success? I wonder how many unionites would be as enthralled with the "union label" if they also saw the themes of socialism which drive that engine and recognized that pure socialism is in fact working against their middle class ideals.

[Deerhunter]

is that a uthopian society ? I am in the PBA, a Bflo Cop. I see Unions as necessary. I think Unions are necessary because some business owners , and Govt in some cases, will exploit workers without them. Look no further than our current situation where a valid , binding , contract isn't being honored. Without Unions this would occur much more often than it does. Look at how Delphi is paying out millions in bonuses to management, under the guise of retaining managerial talent, while they want to cut the pay of laborers by 2/3's. I don't think that is right. Do you ? Walmart has been caught using illegal immigrants, do you agree with this practice ? I don't.

[Batman]

Does not socialism subjugate the individual to the collective and strive toward the common control and ownership of the 'means of production'?
That's exactly what it means. The founding fathers also understood that democracy in it's pure form is mob rule. That's why we are not a democracy but a democratic republic. The use of the term democracy has been twisted such as in "make the world safe for democracy" or "install a democracy in Iraq".

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

is that a uthopian society ? I am in the PBA, a Bflo Cop. I see Unions as necessary. I think Unions are necessary because some business owners , and Govt in some cases, will exploit workers without them. Look no further than our current situation where a valid , binding , contract isn't being honored. Without Unions this would occur much more often than it does. Look at how Delphi is paying out millions in bonuses to management, under the guise of retaining managerial talent, while they want to cut the pay of laborers by 2/3's. I don't think that is right. Do you ? Walmart has been caught using illegal immigrants, do you agree with this practice ? I don't.

Is this the only post you make. You say the same thing over and over and over again. Can you go to your union rep for some more material?

[mikewrona]

I am confused by this phrase. MikeWrona identifies himself on another thread as being one. Maybe my confusion lies in the fact that I am sort of black and white in my thinking when it comes to theories of global political science, but to me this idealogy sounds a lot like being "a little bit pregnant".

I am not a student of economics or geopolitics, but my rudimentary understanding of American democracy is that it fundamentally recognizes and protects personal liberty, private property, and freedom of choice and selection of governance. The Founding Fathers also recognized a Public Benefit in protecting the general health and welfare of the populace.

An alternative to democracy (including our representative democracy) is communism and its corollary of socialism. Again, my basic understanding is that these precepts are antithetical to the foundational tenets of democracy. Does not socialism subjugate the individual to the collective and strive toward the common control and ownership of the 'means of production'?

Are not Democratic Socialists really not striving toward a utopian ideal of plain old socialism, either through evolution or revolution? Isnt the cloak of Democracy, just a 'means to an end'?

I often wonder how many of today's unionites recognize the socialistic themes and rhetoric they have been indoctrinated with in the guise of 'empowering' them to achieve the materialistic American Dream of middle class success? I wonder how many unionites would be as enthralled with the "union label" if they also saw the themes of socialism which drive that engine and recognized that pure socialism is in fact working against their middle class ideals.

Understandable confusion. I will try to help clarify.

source: dsausa.org
"Democratic Socialists believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically—to meet public needs, not to make profits for a few. To achieve a more just society, many structures of our government and economy must be radically transformed through greater economic and social democracy so that ordinary Americans can participate in the many decisions that affect our lives."

[Batman]

It all sounds good and just but there's one problem. It kills incentive and ambition. Why would anyone invest sweat and capital into a venture if their profits are to be seized by the government to redistribute more "fairly". More importantly, what is so just and right about people gaining from someone elses work?

[Batman]

Incidentally, all these "robber barons" sure provide plenty of jobs.

[mikewrona]

Incidentally, all these "robber barons" sure provide plenty of jobs.

Don't forget the Southern Plantation owners. They put 3.5 million slaves to work.

Otherwise they'd be out on the street causing trouble.

[Batman]

Your argument continually views the economy from the singular point of view that it is capital that only matters.
You don't believe the worker has the right to any of the profits. Because you believe labor is undignified and below that of the investor
What about profit sharing plans, bonuses, 401k's with employer contributions, discount stock purchase plans, etc. in addition to a regular wage/salary? Let's not forget health insurance, either. It seems to me that most employers provide these to their employees, especially bigger corporations. I would say the employees are getting part of the profits.

[Cgoodsp466]

Don't forget the Southern Plantation owners. They put 3.5 million slaves to work.

Otherwise they'd be out on the street causing trouble.

Albany is the plantation we is da slaves Mikey pass da chicken.

[mikewrona]

It all sounds good and just but there's one problem. It kills incentive and ambition. Why would anyone invest sweat and capital into a venture if their profits are to be seized by the government to redistribute more "fairly". More importantly, what is so just and right about people gaining from someone elses work?

Economy requires three elements (not listed in order of importance because there is no economy with even one missing)
Capital
Labor
Materials

Your argument continually views the economy from the singular point of view that it is capital that only matters.
You don't believe the worker has the right to any of the profits. Because you believe labor is undignified and below that of the investor.

[TheRightView]

It all sounds good and just but there's one problem. It kills incentive and ambition. Why would anyone invest sweat and capital into a venture if their profits are to be seized by the government to redistribute more "fairly". More importantly, what is so just and right about people gaining from someone elses work?

There goes trying to be more christian...why care about anybody else but yourself? Why give when you can take....it's like Ebenezer Scrouge said(but i'm paraphrasing) let those without die off and decrease the surplus population. This is a truly sad thing if you believe that way.

[CindyLocklear]

There goes trying to be more christian...why care about anybody else but yourself? Why give when you can take....it's like Ebenezer Scrouge said(but i'm paraphrasing) let those without die off and decrease the surplus population. This is a truly sad thing if you believe that way.

Ever hear of volunteerism, charity, etc? The concept of caring for the less fortunate as an act of individual altruism is not precluded in a NONSOCIALIST system, whether it is a governance or an economic system; the point that charity and volunteerism can be given VOLUNTARILY and not grabbed INVOLUNTARILY by the government and then distributed by how the government sees fit is the issue.

[Batman]

There goes trying to be more christian...why care about anybody else but yourself? Why give when you can take....it's like Ebenezer Scrouge said(but i'm paraphrasing) let those without die off and decrease the surplus population. This is a truly sad thing if you believe that way.
That's a real stretch. Did not free market economics lift tons of people out of poverty and provide opportunity and employment for millions upon millions of people? What did Jesus say about teaching a man to fish?

[TheRightView]

Ever hear of volunteerism, charity, etc? The concept of caring for the less fortunate as an act of individual altruism is not precluded in a NONSOCIALIST system, whether it is a governance or an economic system; the point that charity and volunteerism can be given VOLUNTARILY and not grabbed INVOLUNTARILY by the government and then distributed by how the government sees fit is the issue.

Yes, I have heard of those; but that being the case why then do those students in high school have to have communtiy service as aprt of their cirriculum..I haven't seen you opppose that; however the vast majority are not Mother Teresa and are more like Scrooge. I bet if you had the chance you would have voted for Hoover. I do have to emphasize(sp) that you said can, can means being able not that they will do it. I can choose not to wear clothes that match but will I, no. That is pretty black and white I would say. I'm not saying socialism is the best approach but I'm not saying everyone rallyu against it.....if you really cared about the less fortunate, donate your entire salary to any of the local charities and then I'll believe what you say. ------Because the extreme does make an impression.